DSD, finally in all it's glory!

[mytek]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

This is not correct information, according to what I've been told. It is a CD-R/DVD-R burner combined with a DSD/PCM recorder.

There is no SACD burner built in. It will only burn CDs and DVDs.

To complement Lynn post- at the moment it's NOT possible to burn SACDs. Sony designed the format with a pit width modulation which has a code. Essentially when you insert SACD (which physically is a DVD) , the drive laser scans the disc radially to check for this code. If pits are not modulated (as in normal DVD aren't) it will not play the disc.

This was supposed to be a gift to big label to 'encourage" them to use the format in their fight against piracy. But I personally think this feature turned out to actually be a liability, not asset. Big labels don't give a "*" about new formats really and lack of burnability significally slowed adoption of this great fromat at grassroots level.

It actually made it more difficult for producers to release an SACD than for pirats to copy it. As I was saying for last 7 years: as long as analog outs exists there will not be an effective piracy protection and so far wasn't proven wrong.

In meantime with affordable Discwelder software you can easily burn DVD-As and release small runs at very low production cost, not to mention producer mix copies to listen at home first. DVD-A is a great format too but in my opinion SACD with full bandwith 6 channels which sound simply stunning has an edge for these looking for sonic perfection.

There are rumors about an SACD burner to be released sometimes in the near feature by (?). Burner, not ripper. That would be a smart move.

Regards , Michal at Mytek

[mytek]

Originally Posted by Plush

Now we have been using this new Tascam unit for a while now. It sounds very good when fed from an external AES in or from an external converter. Reliability seems good.

We have recorded DSD from our Neve DPD mic amp/converter box and the DSD is OK.
Personally I find little benefit in DSD over 24/96 pcm when listening back through the dCS.

We have recorded in DSD since 1998---but hearing little difference, dumped our DSD equipment.

Now, in acquiring the Neve for its mic amps and pcm conversion capabilities and the Tascam for its ability to make hi-res back-ups, we are , ironically now able AGAIN to compare DSD to ri-res pcm.

DSD---no big deal.

Hudsonek

Hello Hudsonek

Are DCS and this Tascam your only experiences with DSD? If so, you may want to take another shot at this format with better sounding converters. I'm not surprised you hear little difference. I don't want to sound pretentious but I had our $995 Stereo96DAC next to the 2 chan DCS DAC (which does both PCM and DSD) which used to cost something like $6000 8 (?) years ago and that DCS unit was just terribly weiled and inaccurate. DSD, or even 2496 can get much better than that.
(no intention to bash competition, they are pioneers for many things, but this unit is really an ancient technology). On other hand Tascam being a very impressive unit is $1200 or something (?). There is defacto a whole computer inside with its EMI and the budget for converters probably does not exceed $50, so you get to hear what you paid for (although at least the DAC chips are decent).

DSD and hi-resolution formats demand state of the art equipment/converters to shine. Otherwise it's just not what it could be so often a judgement can be premature.

Regards, Michal at Mytek

[audiogeek1]

I am blown away by DSD. We just recorded a 50 piece orchestra to Pro Tools 96K and bussed the surrounds to the Genex DSD 8 channel recorder. (Before Pro Tools).
Then we ABed the surround mics via 96k and DSD. I thought I was happy with 96K. DSD just sounded more like I was in the room I could not believe what I was hearing. The 96k file sounded great until the DSD file. Definitely not harsh sounding.

Amazing stuff. Now to have a DSD multitrack.

Mike

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

Originally Posted by audiogeek1

Now to have a DSD multitrack.....

......that U can edit on like PCM DAWs.

[scb]

Originally Posted by mytek

In meantime with affordable Discwelder software you can easily burn DVD-As and release small runs at very low production cost, not to mention producer mix copies to listen at home first.

there are even free, open source dvd-a tools now:

http://dvd-audio.sourceforge.net/

[zenmastering]

Hi Mike,

Go up the road to Ogden and talk to Ray Kimber (www.kimberkable.com) - he's been doing DSD recording (orchestral and otherwise) for a while now.

For EDITABLE DSD multi-track, check out:

www.superaudiocenter.com for the Sonoma DAW
www.merging.com for Pyramix
www.sadie.com
www.sonicstudio.com

Best,

Graemme

Originally Posted by audiogeek1

I am blown away by DSD. We just recorded a 50 piece orchestra to Pro Tools 96K and bussed the surrounds to the Genex DSD 8 channel recorder. (Before Pro Tools).
Then we ABed the surround mics via 96k and DSD. I thought I was happy with 96K. DSD just sounded more like I was in the room I could not believe what I was hearing. The 96k file sounded great until the DSD file. Definitely not harsh sounding.

Amazing stuff. Now to have a DSD multitrack.

Mike

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

Originally Posted by zenmastering

For EDITABLE DSD multi-track, check out:

www.superaudiocenter.com for the Sonoma DAW
www.merging.com for Pyramix
www.sadie.com
www.sonicstudio.com

Best,

Graemme

hi graemme.
i perused the sites above and was unclear whether or not things have changed recently. do the above units convert to PCM to do the editing or has there been some new development that makes complex editing in DSD possible?
ray kimber is one of the least bullsh!t cable manufacturers out there. and ed meitner has to be THE unsung genius of digital audio. he's made some fantastic pieces of gear that were WAY ahead of it's time, and cost a frickin' fortune.

[Football]

It is nice to see people talking about experiencing this format for themselves instead of talking about the math behind why it shouldn't sound good.

[BenF]

I think one reason people haven't heard true DSD is that many of the "universal" disc players convert to PCM before outputting the SACD. It is important to find a player that uses true DSD output and does not do the conversion, or you will find the difference may not be what it could be.

I have seen comments on this board, and one study on this board, which had this flaw, based on the player they used to A/B/X SACD and Redbook. The difference was essentially nullified by the player used, not by the format having little difference. Bass management on the player also converts to PCM, so comparisons should be done without it.

I humbly hope this helps add to the discussion for someone.

Ben

[Sounds Great]

But still, why can't I have one for the car??

Sony? Pioneer? What's the deal?

[Redsandblu]

Originally Posted by mangoid

Hey all,

The DV-RA1000 seems great for recording digitally, which it sounds like you would be doing. The converters in the box were described by one of the top mastering engineers as something like "not too embarrassing," so i wouldn't count it being great as a *reference* playback device (unless you run its SDIF output through Mytek's new Stereo DSD 192 DAC for monitoring), or for converting the analog signal to DSD. But if you're feeding it DSD from a digital source (such as the Genex) or from high-end A-to-DSD converters (such as the dCS models that include SDIF), it should be great for the price. The other thing is it is only stereo, so no 5.1 mixes. And it won't burn SA-CDs; you can only play those discs on the unit itself.

m

Unfortunately you'd still need a conventional CD player next to the Tascam, cause, it doesn't play back the audio content on enhanced CD's. Neither does it play the CD side of dual discs. Makes it not totally useless, but at least a PITA since you'd expect it to have all of its new features on top of the most common existing ones.
That being said...wanna buy one?

Redsandblu

[arrakian]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

But still, why can't I have one for the car??

Sony? Pioneer? What's the deal?

I would live it if Alpine put an SACD feature in it's F1-Status and other higher-end players.

Also, it looks like there is more headway being made with multi-track DSD...
DXD!!!

[zenmastering]

Originally Posted by mytek

To complement Lynn post- at the moment it's NOT possible to burn SACDs. Sony designed the format with a pit width modulation which has a code. Essentially when you insert SACD (which physically is a DVD) , the drive laser scans the disc radially to check for this code. If pits are not modulated (as in normal DVD aren't) it will not play the disc.

Hi Michal,

That's not entirely true.

I have a small stack of SACD-Rs sitting right here...

There are (to my knowledge) only two burners in existence (one in LA and one in Holland) and for the few times I 've really needed to have an SACD-R, it was worth it.

I do agree with you that a 44k1 downsampled version put on a DVD-A is quite useful and more convenient, if not uhh... 'exactly' what I want.

Hey - good reports on the sound of the Songlines/Theo Bleckmann tracking sessions in Brooklyn. Thanks for making your new converters available to Tony & Aya!!

Best,

Graemme

[MBishopSFX]

Originally Posted by µ¿ z3®ø™

hi graemme.
i perused the sites above and was unclear whether or not things have changed recently. do the above units convert to PCM to do the editing or has there been some new development that makes complex editing in DSD possible?
ray kimber is one of the least bullsh!t cable manufacturers out there. and ed meitner has to be THE unsung genius of digital audio. he's made some fantastic pieces of gear that were WAY ahead of it's time, and cost a frickin' fortune.

The Sonoma 8-to-32 track DSD DAW and the SADiE DSD-8 keep the DSD data as DSD data except at the very moment of the edit. There is no overall conversion to DXD or pcm in these workstations. Complex editing? Many of my EDLs would look like a nightmare to most and I've had no problems whatsoever with any kind of edit or number of tracks edited.

All of the DSD workstations are extremely efficient in editing; actually much more-so than PT.

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

All of the DSD workstations are extremely efficient in editing; actually much more-so than PT.

thanx fer the reply. i was not aware that things had changed.
the question now remains whether the superiority of DSD is strong enough to overcome the entrenched establishment of PCM.
as good as what PCM has become, mt ears still hear remnants of the "digital nasties" that i heard almost 20 years ago. my experience w/ DSD is entirely different. for me, it's the closest thing to "nothing" i have heard for audio recording.
i lust.

[Plush]

I suspected that it was too good to be true.

We have been getting playback errors on the Tascam DVD+RW machine.

The machine just stops playing as we are loading the program into SADiE.

The error message reads, "Read Error 01."

The data is on the disc, but one has to clear the error message, roll back and replay the portion where the read error occurred.

We are using manufacturer approved discs.

That's really bad news.

Anyone else have error messages?

[zenmastering]

Pyramix has a mode that behaves exactly the same way as the Sonoma or Sadie DSD workstations - it's called 'SACD Render mode' and only converts to 8fs for the duration of the edit, otherwise being an exact copy of the source DSD material.


and

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

The Sonoma 8-to-32 track DSD DAW and the SADiE DSD-8 keep the DSD data as DSD data except at the very moment of the edit. There is no overall conversion to DXD or pcm in these workstations. Complex editing? Many of my EDLs would look like a nightmare to most and I've had no problems whatsoever with any kind of edit or number of tracks edited.

All of the DSD workstations are extremely efficient in editing; actually much more-so than PT.

[zenmastering]

Hudson,

Can you load the music as data files (via the Sadie 'puters DVD-ROM drive) and see if that works any better?

Do other disks play properly?

I haven't had the problem that you mention - just one disk that was defective a while ago.

Best,

Graemme

Originally Posted by Plush

I suspected that it was too good to be true.

We have been getting playback errors on the Tascam DVD+RW machine.

The machine just stops playing as we are loading the program into SADiE.

The error message reads, "Read Error 01."

The data is on the disc, but one has to clear the error message, roll back and replay the portion where the read error occurred.

We are using manufacturer approved discs.

That's really bad news.

Anyone else have error messages?

[mytek]

Originally Posted by zenmastering

Hi Michal,

That's not entirely true.

I have a small stack of SACD-Rs sitting right here...

There are (to my knowledge) only two burners in existence (one in LA and one in Holland) and for the few times I 've really needed to have an SACD-R, it was worth it.

OK, thanks, I heard of these, but thought they were purely experimental for research purposes. I'm glad you were able to use them. I'm curious- was a regular DVD-R used as blank?

I also heard rumors of a possibility of an arrival of a commercial pro burner like this soon- are they just rumors?

Originally Posted by zenmastering

Hey - good reports on the sound of the Songlines/Theo Bleckmann tracking sessions in Brooklyn. Thanks for making your new converters available to Tony & Aya!!

Best,

Graemme

Of course, I'm glad they liked them and that it sounds good. They did 88.2k and it was the older model 8X96ADC. I can say now our new 8X192 is a tiny bit more detailed and it also does 192k and DSD. I'm very curious how the difference btwn these two formats in the same hardware essentially will eventually be perceived by users.

Michal www.mytekdigital.com

[synthetic]

Originally Posted by Plush

We have been getting playback errors on the Tascam DVD+RW machine.

The machine just stops playing as we are loading the program into SADiE.

The error message reads, "Read Error 01."

Is the "CLOSE" light flashing in the display? You need to completely format a disc before using it for DSD. It "quick formats" at first, then does a full format in the background. You can get away with background formating at lower resolutions, but if you try to play DSD on a partially-formatted disc you get errors. There's an FAQ on the TASCAM site about this.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by synthetic

Is the "CLOSE" light flashing in the display? You need to completely format a disc before using it for DSD. It "quick formats" at first, then does a full format in the background. You can get away with background formating at lower resolutions, but if you try to play DSD on a partially-formatted disc you get errors. There's an FAQ on the TASCAM site about this.

I was speaking of playback errors on an already fully formatted disc.
As we have continued to use the Tascam for recording, I have not had any more errors from the approx. 20 discs used for the recordings. Perhaps it was just a bad disc some weeks back.

The Tascam is a very good recorder. We feed it digitally from a console through good converters. It's an impressive machine.

However, Tascam customer service has never answered ANY of our emails or even responded to any inquiries. Really Bad News! That's crap!