drum isolation on less than large stages

JayCrouch · 16th January 2003

for those of us that don't have the privalage of having the band spaced out along a 40' wide stage, or have the kit up on a riser at least - what extremes do you go to for 1) keeping bass/guitars/etc out of the drum mics and 2) keeping drums out of everything else...

how many of you go with the plexiglass wall type things - these can be made for much less than they are sold for - go to home depot, get some sheets and a few 2x4s and you are in business..

I even picked up a few small sheets of the stuff and a plastic knife cutter to try to build smaller baffles for amp mics on stage, to experiment with and see how they effect things...

besides keeping your overheads low (if that's your thing), what do you do?

gregrw · 18th January 2003

I find myself praying an awful lot.

No, seriously, I close mic the amps, so they don't pick up a lot of drums. I also yell at bass and guitar players to turn their DAMN AMPS DOWN!!!!

r... But they usually listen.

Vocals are a different story, (just sing louder!! :-) but I've actually found that bleed is not always a huge deal. The biggest problem has always been guitar amps, but if they listen to me and turn down, then not much shows up in the vocal mics.

Cymbals seem to show up everywhere, but in the context of a whole mix, it's not that big a deal at all. That's probably the biggest thing I try to remember, that it's the whole mix that matters in the end.

Jay Kahrs · 19th January 2003

It's all about mic position and stage volume. Get those worked out and isolation is easy. If anything is louder then the drums you have a problem. Also, make sure the amps aren't pointed at the drums. One time I had a bass player set his 8x10 up right next to and pointing slightly toward the drums. Totally not good.

**Remoteness** · 21st January 2003

When you come right down to it. It's really about mic placement!

Sure, you can try to persuade a musician to do something they don't want to do. Sometimes it works. Or you can just work with what you got, and work around them.

Plexiglas panels can work when positioned right. I never was a big fan of Plexiglas drum worlds. I'd rather place individual sheets of Plexi in strategic areas, to do the same thing people think happens when you closely surround the drum kit with a Plexiglas cage.

Steve Smith · 21st January 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Remoteness
... to do the same thing people think happens when you closely surround the drum kit with a Plexiglas cage.

That could be the best way to put that ... I have allways found that surrounding the drummer with material that ignores botom end and sends all the high and mids back at them wasn't the best way to get what I wanted sonicly either.....

Has anyone used the small clearsonic panels thet they make for guitar amps? they can work really well to "steer" the amp out of the way. I try to use that stuff to "divert" sound, rather than tring to "block " it. I think that is probablly what Steve was getting at , correct?

**Remoteness** · 21st January 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Smith
That could be the best way to put that ... I have allways found that surrounding the drummer with material that ignores botom end and sends all the high and mids back at them wasn't the best way to get what I wanted sonicly either.....

Has anyone used the small clearsonic panels thet they make for guitar amps? they can work really well to "steer" the amp out of the way. I try to use that stuff to "divert" sound, rather than tring to "block " it. I think that is probablly what Steve was getting at , correct?

Exactly my man.

Dave Martin · 22nd January 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Smith

Has anyone used the small clearsonic panels thet they make for guitar amps? they can work really well to "steer" the amp out of the way. I try to use that stuff to "divert" sound, rather than tring to "block " it. I think that is probablly what Steve was getting at , correct?

I remember seeing a couple of STevie Ray Vaughn concerts on TV - there were small plexiglass panels between the guitar amps and the drums for exactly that reason - to try to keep the guitar bleed under control.

Jay Kahrs · 22nd January 2003

Usually I have more drums going into guitars then the other way around. Mostly snare and hi-hat. Agh. It's always workable but never as good as I'd hope for, which is none.

Steve Smith · 22nd January 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Martin
I remember seeing a couple of STevie Ray Vaughn concerts on TV - there were small plexiglass panels between the guitar amps and the drums for exactly that reason - to try to keep the guitar bleed under control.

I worked for a guy in Dallas when I lived there who knew Stevie, he apparently played v-e-r-y loud. At the the bleed was all stuff you probablyy wern't going to replace

**Remoteness** · 22nd January 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
Usually I have more drums going into guitars then the other way around. Mostly snare and hi-hat. Agh. It's always workable but never as good as I'd hope for, which is none.

If you're getting more drum (snare & hat) bleed in the guitar mics, try a different mic postition. It's usually about the angle of the mic and guitar cabinet then anything else.

As many already know, I do tons of live work. Drums in the guitars is not generally the problem, with or without plexiglas. The few times it was, we readjusted the mic postion and fixed the problem on site, rather then deal with it at the mix stage.

Jay Kahrs · 24th January 2003

Yeah, I know about the mic position getting in the nulls stuff. But still, this last album I tracked (finishing OD's tomorrow, today?!? whatever) had the bass amp and the drums in the same room for basics. I had more hat and snare in the bass amp then bass amp in overheads. Room mics are off limits as they were PZM's on the ground. Bass amp mic was an AT4031 at bass drum level with the null aimed at the drums AND I had a pair of packing blankets over the mic stand and cab. Whatever. It's totally workable in a mix but if you solo the bass amp you can hear some hat and snare sizzle. Take the high shelf at 12khz and dump it all and the hat and snare disappear.

7rojo7 · 25th January 2003

If we're talkin small stages and venues, then you gotta get the band mixed live off the stage well, otherwise we're not talkin. Most of the time there's no PA happenin for the drums or bass or guitars. you have in order of reinforcement the vox, thekikthetoms, the mids and highs of the bass then the guitars, the cymbals and snare come in only if the venue starts to get larger, as a matter of fact, as the room gets smaller these reinforcements disappear in reverse order.
t's probably better to get it with some kind of stereo or multimic. setup and use spots, as you would in classical or jazz rather than trying to pull off a studio in a small joint.
In my formative days as a recordist I used to take a board feed and a mono mic. to 2 track 1/4" and mess with a delay and the mix at home. out of phase "bass response" proof, when you hear it the least out of phase, reflip it and you're in business. Stereo?
If you like it mix these channels at 3 and 9 and put cross fed slaps hard panned. Magic.

jwh1192 · 2nd February 2003

biggest problems for me are not drums into guitar mics, steve is right with a little angle here and there it is mostly clean and totally workable. guitars into drum mics...a little plex on the side that is facing the drums works...but bleed can be cool...

Vocals...here is the real issue....

1) lead singers that are wimpy...i won't name names but the other night major act and the singer was a girly man...and then he would scream...-40 for the verses and then he would scream and back to -40 for the chorus...40db of headroom at 16bit is yucky...client does not like compression to tape so there you go.

2) B-vox singers that are wimpy too....

3) when more than a 3rd of your mix has to come from the lead vocal mic you are in trouble....grggt

when i was a musician we barely had monitor half the time and i had to walk to school in 15 feet of snow without a coat and only one sock....for a glove....

seriously singers that sing wimpy and then wave the mic in front of the monitors and the drums for added ambience.....like i need more....

live still rules though....

peace john

JayCrouch · 3rd February 2003

[QUOTE seriously singers that sing wimpy and then wave the mic in front of the monitors and the drums for added ambience.....like i need more... [/B][/QUOTE]

Or to let their mic double as a drum mic. Last week I had a FOH gig in small venue that didn't need any reinforcement for the drums (a kick mic only). The band really wanted a recording of the event, and brought along their dude who needed a feed from the board.

Right before showtime the singer asks me how the drums will come thru in the "board" recording If I only have a kick mic. I explain that he is only getting a copy of the "mix" I am making for the room , and that the only thing from the kit I needed for that room was the kick. He then stated he understood that the recording they were getting would have vocals, guitars, and alittle bit of drum bleed in the way back...

Long story short, between verses at points or when the drummer was "soloing" the singer would point his 58 at the drums, as so they could make their way onto their recording. Riding his fader was my job that night basically...

now that's a drum bleed story you may have not seen yet...

16th January 2003	#1
JayCrouch Gear maniac Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: CT Posts: 292 Thread Starter	drum isolation on less than large stages for those of us that don't have the privalage of having the band spaced out along a 40' wide stage, or have the kit up on a riser at least - what extremes do you go to for 1) keeping bass/guitars/etc out of the drum mics and 2) keeping drums out of everything else... how many of you go with the plexiglass wall type things - these can be made for much less than they are sold for - go to home depot, get some sheets and a few 2x4s and you are in business.. I even picked up a few small sheets of the stuff and a plastic knife cutter to try to build smaller baffles for amp mics on stage, to experiment with and see how they effect things... besides keeping your overheads low (if that's your thing), what do you do? __________________ Jay Crouch Crouch@optonline.net 203-521-9520

18th January 2003	#2
gregrw Gear nut Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wakefield, MA Posts: 103	I find myself praying an awful lot. No, seriously, I close mic the amps, so they don't pick up a lot of drums. I also yell at bass and guitar players to turn their DAMN AMPS DOWN!!!! r... But they usually listen. Vocals are a different story, (just sing louder!! :-) but I've actually found that bleed is not always a huge deal. The biggest problem has always been guitar amps, but if they listen to me and turn down, then not much shows up in the vocal mics. Cymbals seem to show up everywhere, but in the context of a whole mix, it's not that big a deal at all. That's probably the biggest thing I try to remember, that it's the whole mix that matters in the end. __________________ =============== Apothecary Travelling Sound and Recording On-Site Recording, Live Recording, Live Mixing It's a Way of Life! http://www.apothecarytravelling.com Alternate email: nomadtravelling@yahoo.com (The old biz name.)

21st January 2003	#4
Remoteness Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 7,311	When you come right down to it. It's really about mic placement! Sure, you can try to persuade a musician to do something they don't want to do. Sometimes it works. Or you can just work with what you got, and work around them. Plexiglas panels can work when positioned right. I never was a big fan of Plexiglas drum worlds. I'd rather place individual sheets of Plexi in strategic areas, to do the same thing people think happens when you closely surround the drum kit with a Plexiglas cage. __________________ Steve Remote AuraSonicLtd.com the home of ASL Mobile & Location Production Remoteness on the Linkedin Network What about my Facebook Profile? Remoteness on Myspace

25th January 2003	#12
7rojo7 urumita Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Spoleto, Italy Posts: 2,370	If we're talkin small stages and venues, then you gotta get the band mixed live off the stage well, otherwise we're not talkin. Most of the time there's no PA happenin for the drums or bass or guitars. you have in order of reinforcement the vox, thekikthetoms, the mids and highs of the bass then the guitars, the cymbals and snare come in only if the venue starts to get larger, as a matter of fact, as the room gets smaller these reinforcements disappear in reverse order. t's probably better to get it with some kind of stereo or multimic. setup and use spots, as you would in classical or jazz rather than trying to pull off a studio in a small joint. In my formative days as a recordist I used to take a board feed and a mono mic. to 2 track 1/4" and mess with a delay and the mix at home. out of phase "bass response" proof, when you hear it the least out of phase, reflip it and you're in business. Stereo? If you like it mix these channels at 3 and 9 and put cross fed slaps hard panned. Magic. __________________ love and light

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22nd January 2003	#8
Jay Kahrs One with big hooves Join Date: May 2002 Location: Earth, NYC metro Posts: 5,898	Usually I have more drums going into guitars then the other way around. Mostly snare and hi-hat. Agh. It's always workable but never as good as I'd hope for, which is none.

24th January 2003	#11
Jay Kahrs One with big hooves Join Date: May 2002 Location: Earth, NYC metro Posts: 5,898	Yeah, I know about the mic position getting in the nulls stuff. But still, this last album I tracked (finishing OD's tomorrow, today?!? whatever) had the bass amp and the drums in the same room for basics. I had more hat and snare in the bass amp then bass amp in overheads. Room mics are off limits as they were PZM's on the ground. Bass amp mic was an AT4031 at bass drum level with the null aimed at the drums AND I had a pair of packing blankets over the mic stand and cab. Whatever. It's totally workable in a mix but if you solo the bass amp you can hear some hat and snare sizzle. Take the high shelf at 12khz and dump it all and the hat and snare disappear.

2nd February 2003	#13
jwh1192 Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: los angeles Posts: 837 1 Review written	biggest problems for me are not drums into guitar mics, steve is right with a little angle here and there it is mostly clean and totally workable. guitars into drum mics...a little plex on the side that is facing the drums works...but bleed can be cool... Vocals...here is the real issue.... 1) lead singers that are wimpy...i won't name names but the other night major act and the singer was a girly man...and then he would scream...-40 for the verses and then he would scream and back to -40 for the chorus...40db of headroom at 16bit is yucky...client does not like compression to tape so there you go. 2) B-vox singers that are wimpy too.... 3) when more than a 3rd of your mix has to come from the lead vocal mic you are in trouble....grggt when i was a musician we barely had monitor half the time and i had to walk to school in 15 feet of snow without a coat and only one sock....for a glove.... seriously singers that sing wimpy and then wave the mic in front of the monitors and the drums for added ambience.....like i need more.... live still rules though.... peace john

3rd February 2003	#14
JayCrouch Gear maniac Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: CT Posts: 292 Thread Starter	[QUOTE seriously singers that sing wimpy and then wave the mic in front of the monitors and the drums for added ambience.....like i need more... [/B][/QUOTE] Or to let their mic double as a drum mic. Last week I had a FOH gig in small venue that didn't need any reinforcement for the drums (a kick mic only). The band really wanted a recording of the event, and brought along their dude who needed a feed from the board. Right before showtime the singer asks me how the drums will come thru in the "board" recording If I only have a kick mic. I explain that he is only getting a copy of the "mix" I am making for the room , and that the only thing from the kit I needed for that room was the kick. He then stated he understood that the recording they were getting would have vocals, guitars, and alittle bit of drum bleed in the way back... Long story short, between verses at points or when the drummer was "soloing" the singer would point his 58 at the drums, as so they could make their way onto their recording. Riding his fader was my job that night basically... now that's a drum bleed story you may have not seen yet...

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