Schoeps - decisions, decisions...

[naturalstudio]

So, the time has come to take the plunge and invest in a pair of Schoeps...

I'm looking for a pair of omnis, so the obvious choice seems to be the CMC6 amplifiers with MK2 capsules. Now a couple of questions...

Is the "xt" version of the amplifier worth the extra money?

Is it worth looking into the MK2H (which apparently has a slight HF rise)? I'll mostly be using the mic's as a distant pair for location work, usually reinforced by a couple of closer direcitonal spot mics. I've read a post on this board where the opinion of the MK2H vs. the MK2 was less than favourable. Would it be safer to simply opt for the classic MK2? I'm not a fan of bright recordings, but I definitely like clarity. For simple two channel recordings, do you think I'd be better with a couple of MK2s or MK2Hs?

Also, do you think it's worth the extra when buying a matched pair? Surely Schoeps' tollerances should be pretty good from mic to mic?

And while I'm here - anyone recommend a good place in the UK to pick up Schoeps stuff? I'm not necessarily looking for the cheapest, but reasonably priced with good customer service would be nice.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Douglas.

[James Lehmann]

Well, the Schoeps literature suggests that the MK2H's were designed for distant micing to compensate for the natural HF drop-off, so these might be the best ones for your application. I would arrange a realworld demo and A/B for yourself - I think Schoeps are pretty good about 'try before you buy', they realise most of their customers are discerning pro's.

I would definitely go for a factory matched pair - if you're spending that much anyway, an extra €50 (don't remember exact cost) for the matching to ensure you get two mics with the closest possible spec seems a worthwhile re-assurance to me.

[naturalstudio]

Thanks for the reply.

Also - I won't exclusively be using the pair for distant mic'ing. Will the MK2H limit me?

Any recommendations on where to purchase?

[ISedlacek]

Hi Douglas,

I have gone through the same decisive process few months ago - so maybe I can share. At that time I was thinking hard about which Schoeps omnis to choose (difficult decision it seemed). In the end I thought that the middle way could be the best and took MK2H. But was not 100% happy with them and I felt a bit uneasy about the obvious HF rise these capsules produced on everything. So I asked Schoeps about a possibility to change for MK2. It was no problem and I found that MK2 was perfect for me. Entirely natural sounding, good for any applicaton - be it close or distant miking. I am totally happy with them and although having also pairs of MK4V and MK21, now I tend to use MK2 for almost everything ...

As for XT - I enquired some time ago and few people, who tried, told me CMC6 sounds much better.

And yes - definitely go for a matched pair ..

All the best,

[kidtexas]

1. Matched pair. As the poster above said, why not on that price.

2. Though I haven't used it yet (I have 2 Mk4's and a Mk8), for what I wanted Schoeps for, the Mk2 makes a lot more sense to me. I can always add a little eq...

3. The CMC6XT bodies have a high freq bump as well as the response out to 40k or whatever it is. I didn't want to sacrifice the audio I could hear for audio I couldn't.

[naturalstudio]

Thanks for the replies.

Yes - it seems that the MK2 with the non-xt amp seems to be the way to go.

I've been looking around and notice the nice matched pair boxset you guys can get over in the U.S. Anyone know whether it would be possible to get hold of one of those in the UK? Anyone recommend a UK dealer? Maybe I'd just be best getting them direct from HHB?

Douglas.

[Joba]

I bought a pair of CMC62H's two weeks ago. I will mostly use them for two mic recordings of a symphony orchestra with a Jecklin disc.

So far I'm quite happy. I am considering to try the MK2S, to get a little more treble. I certainly would not want them to be darker for distance miking.

I do really like the nice bottom and sense of space with the MK2H. The MK2H will probably be just perfect for me in studio scenarios. So perhaps I'll just add a touch of treble with Samplitudes FFT filter when needed instead.

Bottom line, buy from a place that let you try the mics or let you return them, it's all personal preference. The prices varies very little so buying locally make sense.

Also, the fee for matching is so small so there is no point to go with unmatched mics.

Finally to all experienced Schoeps users: are there any differences in sound between the MK2, MK2H and MK2S other than frequency response?

[jnorman]

in this price range, you should also consider the DPA 4006s, probably the industry standard omni. i have owned schoeps and DPAs, and am currently using a pair of the 4006s. while the schoeps are superb, and i would agree with Ivo that the mk2 caps are probably preferable to the 2H, the DPAs come with both near-field and diffuse-field grids, making them easily adaptable for both studio and live venue work.

[ISedlacek]

Originally posted by jnorman
in this price range, you should also consider the DPA 4006s, probably the industry standard omni. i have owned schoeps and DPAs, and am currently using a pair of the 4006s. while the schoeps are superb, and i would agree with Ivo that the mk2 caps are probably preferable to the 2H, the DPAs come with both near-field and diffuse-field grids, making them easily adaptable for both studio and live venue work.

I would be very much interested to know how it sounds when you record the same things with 4006 and MK2. How the sound difference could be described (if there is any) ? I would love to try myself (just for the "gearslut" passionate experiment), but I don´t have any access to DPA ...
From what I heard around, people usually say DPA is more "accurate" , Schoeps is more "musical" ... Anyone tried ?
What I can say using MK2 , they simply sound natural, pleasant and transparent

[Ted Nightshade]

Yes, the MK2 and MK2H sound different in other ways than the highs. Listen to the mids, the most important part of any microphone.

I'd be looking at some other omnis too. Josephson has a new body for use with Microtech Gefell Mk221, which capsule has an amazing off axis response, to look at the charts- I'm dying to hear it! That, for me, is the holy grail- an omni with a great off axis response at all frequencies.

You'd probably want to check DPA too- they can really make beautiful sense of an acoustically confusing room.

I compared the CMC6 and CMC6xt, and the CMC6 is WAY better! WAY better! Forget the xt.

I tried a lot of Schoeps capsules and mic bodies (old tube, new tube, the ones I already mentioned) and what I really loved was the MK41 hypercardioid capsule and the CMC6. THAT is a combination made in heaven!

[Joba]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade

I tried a lot of Schoeps capsules and mic bodies (old tube, new tube, the ones I already mentioned) and what I really loved was the MK41 hypercardioid capsule and the CMC6. THAT is a combination made in heaven!

A pair of MK41's will probably be my next mic purchase and one of the main reasons I went with Schoeps instead of DPA.

The Josephson looks very interesting too.

I must say though that the CMC62H is way better for me than my previous Earthworks, not only because of the lower noise level.

[ISedlacek]

Ted, why do you like MK41 that much ? (I never tried them). What are your favourite applications to use them for ? I have just cardioids MK4V. I always thought that hypercardioids are too directional, thus catching only a small part of the instrument sound spectrum (= opposite to omnis). Can you enlighten me a bit ? Would MK41 open a new sound possibilitis while recording violin, flutes, guitar, percussions etc. ? So far omnis are almost always clear winners over cardiods to my ears

[Plush]

2H is not THAT boosted in the high end.
MK2 is a so called flat omni made to be used close in--certainly not in the free field.

We find the Schoeps to be less bright and less transistory than the B&K (DPA) mics.


For the mang, JOBO----and others using Jecklin or Schneider disk--

Jecklin technique *specifies* omnis with a rising high end (Schoeps 2S or similar) for use with the foam disk. This ameliorates the hi freq. absorption inherent in foam disk techniques.

We feel that since omni mics are not universally applicable, recordist(as) should first have a good cardioid assortment in the mic cabinet. For example, you can't use an omni in a poor room.

Schoeps xt body is unnecessary.

[Plush]

Originally posted by Plush
2H is not THAT boosted in the high end.
MK2 is a so called flat omni made to be used close in--certainly not in the free field.

KORRECTION!

The above SHOULD have read:

". . . certainly not in the diffuse field."

[Joba]

Originally posted by Plush
Jecklin technique *specifies* omnis with a rising high end (Schoeps 2S or similar) for use with the foam disk. This ameliorates the hi freq. absorption inherent in foam disk techniques.

Did Jecklin specify this in his original papers?

I have only read the reproduction at Josephson's site: http://www.josephson.com/tn5.html

I see no other specifications than:
"For recording with the Jecklin disc, sound pressure microphones must always be used, i.e. "real" sound pressure microphones. Microphones with a switchable directional characteristic, insofar as they are designed as double diaphragm microphones, may not be used. "

I have noticed a slight reduction of treble with the disc, which makes sense, since only the higher frequencies are absorbed by the foam.

The next thing I will try is a slightly smaller disc with thinner foam to see what happens. I'll probably check out the MK2S too if I can get them in time for the session next week. I'm a bit worried that the brass will be too piercing with this particular orchestra though.

Do MK2H and MK2S sound similar in the bass and midrange?

[fifthcircle]

Originally posted by ISedlacek
Ted, why do you like MK41 that much ? (I never tried them). What are your favourite applications to use them for ?

I'm not Ted, but I'll comment... I like the MK 41 capsule because it is probably the cleanest off-axis of the entire Schoeps line. The sound really is pretty stunning. The "reach" due to the hypercardiod pattern in an ensemble is fantastic, too, if you can't get the mics close enough to the source (ie opera stage spots, etc...). I don't generally use them as mains, but I do like them as spot mics.

--Ben

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by fifthcircle
I'm not Ted, but I'll comment... I like the MK 41 capsule because it is probably the cleanest off-axis of the entire Schoeps line. The sound really is pretty stunning. The "reach" due to the hypercardiod pattern in an ensemble is fantastic, too, if you can't get the mics close enough to the source (ie opera stage spots, etc...). I don't generally use them as mains, but I do like them as spot mics.

--Ben

Yeah, the off axis is beautiful, just as nice as on axis but without the cardioid boost. GREAT for putting in the midst of an ensemble, and you can use the boost to mix things- point it at the vocalist's mouth, for instance, just a great spotlight effect. And if you have a marginal room, you can arrange so most of the room sound is coming from whatever distant corner sounds best. The sound is absolutely magical-wow!

We use a single mk41 to mic up our ensemble on stage- vocal, drums, vibes, leslie, percussion. Works beautifully.

The other wonderful thing about the mk41 is that although the lows are attenuated, somehow it just sounds complete- unlike the dpa 4011's I used for a long time where the low roll off sounded phasey and unsatisfying. Even on a concert bass drum, the mk41's did not get the fundamental but it still sounded really nice. Makes me very interested to try the Schoeps figure 8 capsule with the mk41 as a m/s pair...

As for the Jecklin, the original spec is not foam but fleece. After making several discs of my own out of plywood and then MDF, I bought a Core-Sound disc and covered it with fleece. I believe that you hear the acoustic signature of the disc, and an nice chaotic organic material is preferable to any kind of plastic foam. It's very important to get good separation with the disc, and damp the reflections.

I have used it with true pressure omnis, dpa 4041, with a high end boost, and with LDCs on omni pattern. I use them in the near field, just a few feet from a small ensemble, and I much preferred the LDC's on omni to the pressure omnis. I look forward to trying some pressure omnis without the high boost- the Josephson/Gefells.

I couldn't bring myself to buy either the mk2 or mk2h capsules, despite going for the mk41's and thus having the cmc6's already. The mids were not what I wanted, and since a vocalist is usually part of what I'm recording, the mids are everything really. I did find the mids to be preferable with the mk2.

Of course, it could be that none of the other pressure omnis really thrill me any more, in which case I will get some mk2's.

[Plush]

Hello Mr. Ted---

As sometimes happens, your post presents a ball of confusion.

I cannot follow or integrate your comments into a coherent whole.

Re-read the poster's original question.

Good Day!

Plush

[naturalstudio]

Thanks again for all your replies - it makes interesting reading.

jnorman - I'm curious where you are finding DPA 4006s in the same price range as the Schoeps...!? I had considered them but they seem to be quite a few hundred quid more expensive than the Schoeps.

ted - could you give me a link to the Josephson bodies for use with MG capsules? I've always been a fan of MG stuff, so that might turn out to be an interesting proposition...

Cheers,

Douglas.

[naturalstudio]

Whoah - just found some info on the Josephson/Gefell omnis - at $1800 each they're a bit out of my reach at the moment. One day though ;)

[Joba]

Since you (like me) are a Gefell fan. Have you considered the M296? It can be found for a bit less than the Schoeps/DPA stuff. I have not tried it but it might be worth checking out if you are on a budget.

[naturalstudio]

Yeah - I did look at those M296s, but the price isn't too far off the Schoeps anyway, and I reckon I'd get a bit more use out of a mic with interchangable capsules.

Just out of interest - where do you UK guys get MG mics?

Douglas.

[naturalstudio]

Ok - I'm thinking I might just hire a pair of Schoeps for an upcoming recording and see if they are to my liking.

Can anyone recommend a good rental company in the UK that has Schoeps stuff (particularly the CMC6 w/MK2 capsule)...?

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by naturalstudio
Ok - I'm thinking I might just hire a pair of Schoeps for an upcoming recording and see if they are to my liking.

Can anyone recommend a good rental company in the UK that has Schoeps stuff (particularly the CMC6 w/MK2 capsule)...?

An excellent idea! Nothing like actually using the mics for what you're doing, and seeing how the fit is.

Plush, FWIWATAM, last post I was replying to a couple different inquiries and statements that have been made along the way, not so much the original question. Do enjoy!

[jnorman]

hey ivo - come on over to portland to see me and damon, and we'll get ted (nightshade) up here, and we'll do some mic testing. or maybe i can just convince ted to come up salem way with his schoeps and we'll put them side by side with my 4006s, and we can ftp you some files to listen to.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by jnorman
hey ivo - come on over to portland to see me and damon, and we'll get ted (nightshade) up here, and we'll do some mic testing. or maybe i can just convince ted to come up salem way with his schoeps and we'll put them side by side with my 4006s, and we can ftp you some files to listen to.

Don't have any Schoeps omnis... Ivo does though! It would be very interesting to do some testing when I finally get my hands on the josephson/gefells...

[sdelsolray]

Originally posted by jnorman
hey ivo - come on over to portland to see me and damon, and we'll get ted (nightshade) up here, and we'll do some mic testing. or maybe i can just convince ted to come up salem way with his schoeps and we'll put them side by side with my 4006s, and we can ftp you some files to listen to.

I'm in Portland, I could contribute a pair of matched CMC6/MK4 and can bring along a pair of Gefell M294s (cards with HF rise). I play guitar too.

[Don S]

I have a pair of the Schoeps MK2H/CMC6 matched and love them! I record mostly classical performances. Although they have a boost, I still sometimes find myself adding a little more in the 6k range during post.
I've heard similar comments from other engineers regarding the XT preamps. Not much of a difference and a preference for the CMC6.
I did own a pair of MK41's for about 6 months. I liked the sound - very natural off axis - especially when used in a modified ORTF. But- getting them in the right place took much longer than I had expected. As a stereo, pair the hypers were very sensitive. A couple inches closer or farther in a hall made a huge difference in the sound. But, when you find the magic spot - absolutely stunning!
Half of the time, I don't get the chance for a sound check and have to make final adjustments while the orchestra is warming up.
Plus, I use them with a Grace 201 and a MytekADC - sounds pretty good to my ears!

Cheers!
Don

[jnorman]

don - yes, the mk2h's are made for more diffuse field applications since their slight high end lift offsets the loss of highs in the diffuse field. ivo tends to use closer mics and the mk2 seems more comfortable in that application in the nice old churches and halls where ivo gets to record. you should listen to some of his work - it is quite good.