low budget mobile rig

[fatty]

hi steve and crew,

i'm currently putting together a small cheap portable set up for recording in rehearsal spaces and also live gigs.
so far i have purchased the presonus firestation and will soon be getting an ibook to hook up to the firestation via firewire.
anyways, i plan to do some recording of local bands at a venue that has a 24 channel gl2200. i also do the f.o.h. sound there as well. most nights we only use around 10 mic channels on this desk (57's for instruments, 58's for vox, atm25 for kick, thats it). i plan to patch the 8 mics to be recorded into the last 8 channels on the left of the desk, set the gain, run out of the direct outs, thru the firestation ( it has 8 line in 8 line out ) and into the line inputs on the right side of the desk. these channels can then be used for the foh mix.
the benefit of doing it this way is that i don't need to worry about mic splitting transformers or bringing along my own mics (although i'll probably bring a couple of my condensors for drum overheads), and also set up time will be easy coz i'm setting up the foh and recording all at the same time.
the draw backs of this approach are...????
this is where i need some advice. can you point out some potential flaws in my plans, or let me know of any problems i may encounter?? i realise this is a pretty low budget way of going about this, but most of the bands i will be working with are punk, rock'n'roll etc, and don't really need a hell of a lot of tracks or totally hi-fi production to sound cool.
thanks everyone, i look forward to your advice.

[Remoteness]

Hey Fatty,

Why not individually Y cord the ten mic inputs to each side of the desk. Use one side for FOH and the other side for your recording. You can independently EQ for FOH and the recording. Simplify your life and build a few Y or N cords. They can easily be patch on stage or at the FOH desk. You can still bring a couple of your own condensers and stuff; it's all good.

If you can, try to time delay your headphones and/or nearfields to match what you're hearing at the FOH position. This is very important to me, when I record from the FOH area.

It may be a low budget approach, but that shouldn't stop you from getting a great sound. You can make the stuff in front of you work just as easily as blowing it off, 'cause it isn't the best you can work with. Remember, your ear is more important then the gear you got at hand! Don't believe the hype!

Here's a few links that may be helpful to you. Check them out below...

Quality Recording at FOH

What would you do (live recording question)

Tell us your favorite place to setup your portable recording

Why do you want to go split that perfectly good mic anyway?

Your opinion on mid-level remote gear ?

Feel free to add your posts to any of the above thread links, or just say it here instead.

[Steve Smith]

If the 2200 has the same type of direct out as the other GL desks, you may be able to take the inset send to the other channels ( the ones you want to use for FOH ) and the EQ as needed on the inputstrip and take the direct out for the recording ( or a subgroup out if you need to buss down some mics or something...)

Good Luck!

[fatty]

thanks for all the great advice steve, seems like i'm on the right track then!
can you explain please what an n cord is? never heard of it.
also, if i just split the mics with a y cord, isn't the impedence matching affected or something? wouldn't adjusting gain on 1 of the splits affect the sound of the other split? i might be wrong coz i'm not very knowledable on tech details, but i though y splitting mics was a no-no.
thanks again.

[JayCrouch]

Originally posted by fatty
i plan to patch the 8 mics to be recorded into the last 8 channels on the left of the desk, set the gain, run out of the direct outs, thru the firestation ( it has 8 line in 8 line out ) and into the line inputs on the right side of the desk. these channels can then be used for the foh mix.
the benefit of doing it this way is that i don't need to worry about mic splitting transformers or bringing along my own mics (although i'll probably bring a couple of my condensors for drum overheads), and also set up time will be easy coz i'm setting up the foh and recording all at the same time.
the draw backs of this approach are...????

fatty - I'm a bit lost as to your need to run into your DAW, and then back out of your DAW into the console...

are you looking to use your DAW for dynamics/fx processing? If not, just taking the direct out of the A&H should be a good enough approach for what you are doing, since the mic should require the same amount of gain from the console pre wether it's going to the mains or to your DAW.

also keep in mind the risk factor of running live sound that is dependant of your DAW, if you crash - the show stops.

why not just take the direct outs of the house mics that you want to use - and then patch your own mics into the unused channels of the desk

also, that console might have a switch for the direct outs to be pre eq/fader - or it may be that way as is..

let us know what you need to do...

[fatty]

Originally posted by JayCrouch
fatty - I'm a bit lost as to your need to run into your DAW, and then back out of your DAW into the console...

Hi Jay,

Let me clarify, the firestation is not a DAW. its just an interface. the show would go on if the DAW crashed, there is no conversion or anything going on between the inputs and outputs of the firestation. in fact the firestation can also be used as a stand alone analogue 8x2 mixer if need be. or a standalone 8 channel a to d or d to a lightpipe converter. its pretty versatile.
anyway the reason i was thinking about setting up this way was purely for simplicities sake. it just seemed logical to me.
i would plug the mics in, set the gain, direct out into the firestation and hit record, and thats it. all done. i can now concentrate on doing foh safe in the knowledge that whatever i do to this signal on the left side of the desk is not gonna mess with my recording.
sorry i've basically repeated myself. do you get what i mean?

[JayCrouch]

yeah man....

cool that the presonus piece sends the inputs directly to the outputs, and works standalone - could come in handy for some folk....

good luck with your gig

[gregrw]

Though the recorders are different, and the console bigger(GL2200-432,) this is pretty much what I do. The console is in the "split" mode: several channels aren't routed anywhere and are used only for their preamps. (I take the signal from the direct out of the channel.) I have some outboard pres, too, but the signals all go through the recorders (DA-78hrs) before being mixed for monitors and the P.A. It seemed easier to do it this way so I don't have to deal with transformer splits and the like. It's worked just fine so far!

[fatty]

Originally posted by gregrw
Though the recorders are different, and the console bigger(GL2200-432,) this is pretty much what I do. The console is in the "split" mode: several channels aren't routed anywhere and are used only for their preamps. (I take the signal from the direct out of the channel.) I have some outboard pres, too, but the signals all go through the recorders (DA-78hrs) before being mixed for monitors and the P.A. It seemed easier to do it this way so I don't have to deal with transformer splits and the like. It's worked just fine so far!

Excellent!

[Remoteness]

Originally posted by fatty
thanks for all the great advice steve, seems like i'm on the right track then!
can you explain please what an n cord is? never heard of it.
also, if i just split the mics with a y cord, isn't the impedence matching affected or something? wouldn't adjusting gain on 1 of the splits affect the sound of the other split? i might be wrong coz i'm not very knowledable on tech details, but i though y splitting mics was a no-no.
thanks again.

Yes, you're on the right track indeed!

You can Y a mic into most mic pre's these days, especially when you're using the same console inputs.

Many FOH engineers do this when they don't have a dedicated monitor desk and they want to have a different EQ setting for the stage monitors. Adjusting the input gain on one pre will NOT affect the other. Moving the mic around will affect both inputs.

Y splitting mics can be a no-no, if and when two different consoles are used and their impedance's don't match, or when the pres are not bridging inputs, etc.

Many engineers prefer transformer isolated splitters because the guest or "other" console is not physically connected to their board.

Well, an "N" also known as a "Z" cord, is a "Y" with options.
Basically, it has two MXLRs and two FXLRs. We only build these kind of adaptors. Why bother with your ordinary "Y" cord when you can build an "N" cord? With "Y" cords, you got to stock both directions, meaning a male to two female XLRs and a female to two male XLRs. An "N" cord has them both!!

I sketched a quick drawing of an "N" cord. Check it out below...

[fatty]

steve, that's brilliant!!

thanks steve remote, steve smith, jason and greg. very helpful.

[studjo]

Didn't any of you guys modify your A&H desks? I modified my litttle Mix Wizzard this way: the direct outs are directly behind the mic pre amp (Post insert-Pre EQ). The EQ-ing I'm doing live doesn't affect my recording and the level to tape is set with the mic gain (DA 98/DA 38). The fader works only for my live sound.

Right now I'm mixing a band that I recorded this way. The live sound was big and recording is also (they say).

Jo

[Steve Smith]

Originally posted by gregrw
Though the recorders are different, and the console bigger(GL2200-432,) this is pretty much what I do. The console is in the "split" mode: several channels aren't routed anywhere and are used only for their preamps. (I take the signal from the direct out of the channel.) I have some outboard pres, too, but the signals all go through the recorders (DA-78hrs) before being mixed for monitors and the P.A. It seemed easier to do it this way so I don't have to deal with transformer splits and the like. It's worked just fine so far!

\


I have done a couple live records this way when i was mixing FOH as well = Outboard preamps - DA 78 - Console insert return - regular signal path... If I needed any gates or comps for the live mix, they were patched post DA 78 pre console. Wow is there a huge diffrence in the sonics of an A&H GL 4000 when you are using manley, amek and neve pres.. :)

Just put the DA 78's in input only ( very inportant ) , and mix away!

[gregrw]

Studjo: Nope, I haven't modified the A&H. I had considered doing so. It would have bypassed the fader and EQ for the direct out. However, I have run into situations in which the signal was very hot, so I was glad to have the fader, so I could trim it a bit! And the EQ is always on bypass anyway. Those channels that I am using as pres don't go to the mains and monitors. The returns from the '78s go to the mains and monitors.

Steve Smith: I'd love someday to use Manley, Amek and Neve. But, I see what you mean when I use joemeek, ART and Aphex. It's all about tonality. As for dynamics, I just throw in an insert on the channel in question. I don't record compressed tracks: too risky. I can always add compression during mixdown. (And no, that's not saying 'fix it in the mix!' :-)

[Steve Smith]

I don't compress to tape live unless I am in a proper environment to monitor ( ie: NOT doing FOH sound as well) thats why I patch the comps/gates after the 78's.

as for the pres, remember the motto around here ( well, one of the mottos) it's the ears not the gear!

Have fun man, live stuff can be a pain, but it can also have some pretty magical moments!

[Fuzzy Logic]

I just built 8 n cords, and they work great.

i'm calling them z cords because no one understands what i said when i say, n cord. They think i'm saying end cord or nth cord, etc.

This forum rules.

THANKS FOR EVRYTHING> KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK.


Oh one more thing....

are you happy with the quality of the small remote operations? for me it seems like experience is everything. you can buy all the gear you can afford but you cant buy experience.

[gregrw]

I have to say I'm happy with every piece of gear I have. Hopefully I'll still be saying that in a year or two, once they've been through road torture. But for now...

And you're right about experience. I've learned a lot just by doing it. I have been shown the way a number of times by many people, but nothing beats getting your hands dirty. And I realize I still have a long way to go, but that's still pretty cool!

-GRW

[Remoteness]

Hey Greg,

Tell us about your gear...

Why not add you name to the growing "PGP" thread at the top of the forum page?

[gregrw]

I think I have written about it on other threads...but what the hell, it's fun to do so, and it'd be cool to be on the "PGP approved" list.

So I'll mosey on over to that thread...Give me a few minutes...

-GRW