State of the location recording business.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

sorry to be off topic, and I honestly mean NO offense, but Joel, how long did it take to grow out the Winger hair?you look like Kip winger in your avitar.

(Truth be told, the av is from a few years back. See, I look much more respectable today.)

And, you know T. Ray, you look vaguely familiar... can't place it.

[Kalara]

This is perfect,

Let me start off with a quick 30 day summary of my mobile career.......

This weekend I will be doing a 5 camera 32 input HD recording for three bands: a hippie jam thing, a pop country thang and an indie rock thing..I will be doing these for BEER and a demo reel for a sound stage that I frequently work for.

Last Friday I recorded a 16 input PT LE laptop deal at a local jazz show for $250

The Saturday before that I recorded 2 mics and some playback devices for a local awards show for $450

The weekend before that I recorded 3 days at one of the most incredible venues on the face of this planet for three days for $16,000.

There is a single common thread between all of these devices that has remained the same:

An addiction to the creation of music.

It is sad that some of our icons are drowning with debt and dying due to the CHANGE in the music industry. Many of the studios that line the notes of some of my favorite records have closed down within the past decade.

QUALITY SOUND HAS NOTHING TO DUE WITH GEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does a pair of B&K 4041's onto a 1 inch 2 track sing like a siren waking the devils soul. YES...but I'd be happy to post a recording of Edger Winters PLAYING a piano through a 57 and a cheap shure condenser through a 300 foot snake into an RME mic pre that would make you cry.

My point is......the only reason why it's becoming harder and harder for us to survive, is not because "the music industry has no money" or "technology has provided every hum drum hoolio (technical term) to drive a mac and Pro Tools"....it's because WE (myself included) are obsessed with gear and spending money on it.

Times are changing in the recording industry. Nobody needs a $200,000 VR. The only people suffering are those who do. (GOD BLESS THE KEEPERS OF THE NEVE VR).

I'm not that old, but let me be so bold as to say "remember when you would go out and work long hours on a gig for free or dinner or $50", just so you could be there. Ask yourself why you were willing to do those 20 hour days. For me the answer is because creating music is FUC*ING Cool.

Perhaps, I am a fortunate one, but I love remote recording, and even though I live feast or famine, I pride myself on owning all of my equipment (not cause I'm rich) and doing what I love..music. If you want a house in the hills and a condo in Venezuela, put on a suit and sit a cubicle.

Ranting and Raving

Mark

[Remoteness]

Mark,

Well said. Thanks for sharing that view point.

[valleysound]

Thanks for the points of view guys. I'm new at the recording, but have some success in the live sound market. There are gigs that I do for the love of it. I love the music and want to be part of it. But there are other gigs which are "work". I don't care about the music or what they do as long as they are good, but they pay the bills.
I am trying to keep the bar high and to me gear does matter, for a reason. There are guys that show up with cheap gear, milk crates of cables, generally unprofessional looking. Hey maybe they can get some great recordings or mixes, but at least look the part of a professional. That's why you pay top dollar to go to the dealership when Bob the backyard mechanic can do the same job for cheaper and MAYBE just as good. It's all part of the game. With skills being even, the only thing separating me and them, I feel, is the package. That's my rant. I take pride in my skills and gear, even though it may not be close to the "real Pros" around here. I do live sound gigs in bars and when the band is used to Milkcrate Mikey and see me come in with my racks and multipins, matching amps, etc, they have a sense why they are paying me more. If I had the bottom feeder gear I would get bottom feeder pay, no matter what my skill. Sometimes I just get hired for "important" gigs and the rest of the time the cheap guy does the job for them.
I'm ranting too!! I've worked extremely hard to get where I am and I'm going to set myself apart from others. I was a 9 to 5 landscaper 5 years ago and played bass for fun. I was nobody and went to the bank with absolutely nothing and got a loan(good to know people!). Now I have a successful landscape business, live sound business, and now I am working on live recording.
I love life and freedom more than anything else. A day gig for $300 is better than wasting 2 days at $150, even though I still do sometimes.
I hope not to piss anyone off, just my take on life and business.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Kalara

QUALITY SOUND HAS NOTHING TO DUE WITH GEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark

I think this sums it up! I couldn't agree more! But, all I can add is that quality gear makes it easier to get a quality product. Since I record mostly orchestras and chamber music, quality gear saves time in the studio when it comes time to master.

[mosrite]

What suits me in terms of gear is quality not quantity. I have 2, what could be considered, high-end channels of pre and ADC and a few great mics. Sure it limits me in some respects but my overheads are a big fat "0" and I own all my gear. It also means that, given the right approach, I believe that I can achieve just as good results as a location recordist that turns up with a console and a million channels. Not better results, just different. Thats what I love about recording, there are so many nuances that create a unique sound from all the different combinations of gear to the approach of the engineer that no one approach could be said to be correct.

I was considering taking a loan from the bank recently to expand my gear. I was so close to signing off. I had the business plan, the suit and the chat. When he started quoting fees that the day before he had conveniently missed, I walked. I felt extremely good that I didnt go for it and soon after landed a couple of jobs that should pay for what I need anyway.

Marks post was great as it not only underlined the fact that getting into huge ammounts of debt for gear is not always the best approach but he also points out that passion for recording is the key. I think the 2 are linked. I might be less passionate about recording if, when setting up a disgustingly expensive mic, I realised how much in debt I had got to buy it!

[Remoteness]

Okay, let's jump (almost) three months ahead from mosrite's post...

How are we all doing?

"Big Remote Truck" companies are building smaller rigs. Smaller operations are expanding. What about you folks -- Is everything everything?

What genre of music or type of productions are you mostly involved in these days?

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

How are we all doing? What genre of music or type of productions are you mostly involved in these days?

I do mostly folk/country/americana recordings for broadcast. I'm still working on a couple of mixes from last fall, but I've also done several more over the spring, and I've just finished a couple from August. I may have another one this week, and then a bunch more in November.

This is a hobby for me. I charge a small amount to the radio station and/or web site that uses these recordings, but probably nowhere near what they're actually worth. I consider it to be charity work that I do for public radio. Whatever money they give me tends to go back into equipment purchases.

I enjoy getting to work with the musicians that I like and respect. For me, that's the real payoff. Most of them aren't household names - unless you're in the folk music world, in which case some are pretty famous.

I'd love to find a way to make a living at this, but it just doesn't seem possible at this point. So I just keep my day job to pay the mortgage and the college tuitions, and then do this stuff on the evenings and weekends.

One musician who I recorded last fall decided that he liked my recording so much that he wanted to use it for his new live album. So for the first time now, there's an album coming out that says "Produced by Jim Gilliland". Frankly, I'm surprised that there haven't been more of these - some of these recordings turn out quite nice.

But for the most part, I'm just hidden away here in northeastern Ohio recording interesting groups who pass through town. It's a fun hobby - beats the hell out of playing golf.

[Sqye]

Man, it's amazing to see the change in the marketplace since the
initiation of this thread

Remoteness, thank you for all of your wonderful insight, care and attention
in your on the money responses to the postings here.

It's very heartening to read such positive and productive thinking.

Moving toward 2007, and the media scape is sure changing, as is the
gear scape out there.

When I was a teen in NYC, there were pages and pages of recording
studio ads in all the local papers in NYC. Obviously, since then,
the number has dramatically dwindled. I know this is hardly news,
but on an existentialist level, it still blows my mind to think how much
our industry has changed.

This post is slighty OT, and I apologize for that.

Great posts all around, guys.

[Gilliland]

My last post got me thinking about a general question. I don't really have a good handle on what WOULD be a fair price for the work that I do. Can those of you who charge regularly for this stuff tell me what you'd charge for my work?

Here's basically what I do:

1) Coordinate with the club, artist, sound crew to prep for the recording.

2) Bring and set up gear for recording. Split the stage mics and record each set of the performance. Tear down, pack, and go home.

3) Transfer the multitracks to the computer, then mix. This tends to be the bulk of the work. It takes a while to get it right.

4) "Master" the final stereo mix, applying final EQ and limiting. Edit out material that should be dropped from the broadcast, then set track marks and burn to CD.

5) Deliver CDs to radio/web for broadcast. The radio station usually takes on the responsibility to document the final recording and to deliver a finished copy back to the artist.

So what's that worth? I'd probably price it per artist, so that if there were two artists on the same bill, I'd charge for each one. But I'd probably charge the same thing for each show, regardless of whether the artist played 45 minutes or two hours. That's because the mix tends to take about the same amount of work regardless of its length. And in my description of the steps above, I've deliberately simplified the process. As all of you know, none of these steps are as easy as I may have made them sound.

Note that I really don't intend to try to charge "full price" for my work, but it would be useful for both the radio station and myself to have a good idea of what the work is worth. I'm not sure that they always appreciate the value of something that is offered so freely.

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by Gilliland

....tell me what you'd charge for my work?

After 10 days, I guess no one is interested in putting up an estimate. In any event, it wasn't my intention to hijack the thread. Feel free to take it back to its original intent.

[John Suitcase]

Originally Posted by Gilliland

After 10 days, I guess no one is interested in putting up an estimate. In any event, it wasn't my intention to hijack the thread. Feel free to take it back to its original intent.

I think it's very hard to say. At the end of the day, it's worth whatever someone will pay. If you do very good work, for a broadcaster that's making good money off sponsorship and ads, and it's something they depend on, then it's worth a lot more than if it's just something they do for the fun of it.

In my market, I might charge anywhere from $300, up to several thousand, depending on the difficulty of the setup, the budget, and how much post work is done. I've done things that were really straight, and things where almost every thing was overdubbed after the fact. Needless to say, the second was for an album, and the budget was much larger than the other projects.

So, what are the clients willing to pay, what are other companies going to charge, and what's the least you'll do it for? Your price should be below the first, a bit above the second, and well above the last.

Sorry to be vague, but every market is different, and to some extent, every gig is different.

[Roland]

Interestingly I think rates are a little on the rise again after all these years, however it appears this is due to a large extent to external factors. Cost of transporting kit, venue/piano hire, tunning fee's. The fact that employed engineer rates are getting higher. Sometimes my charges are relatively insignificant to other external costs.

I've just quoted for a demo recording for a soprano and my charges are slightly less than about half the bill, generally I think this is leading to less of the price resistance there was, say two years ago.

regards



Roland

[Don S]

I maybe a bit optimistic, but I get the feeling things are coming back from the "get it done as cheaply as possible" route. Here in the NYC area, many people are going to guitar center, spending a thousand dollars and calling themselves on-location engineers. This was a little discouraging at first, but now I get more calls because clients can imediately tell the difference in quality and service.

I'll admit that I'm happy rigs are getting smaller. I thought about investing in a truck and am happy I didn't. I can fit a 24 track rig and needed toys in a 2 wheeled luggage cart that easily goes down many city blocks!
Keep the faith guys!

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

I think it's very hard to say. At the end of the day, it's worth whatever someone will pay. If you do very good work, for a broadcaster that's making good money off sponsorship and ads, and it's something they depend on, then it's worth a lot more than if it's just something they do for the fun of it.

In my market, I might charge anywhere from $300, up to several thousand, depending on the difficulty of the setup, the budget, and how much post work is done. I've done things that were really straight, and things where almost every thing was overdubbed after the fact. Needless to say, the second was for an album, and the budget was much larger than the other projects.

So, what are the clients willing to pay, what are other companies going to charge, and what's the least you'll do it for? Your price should be below the first, a bit above the second, and well above the last.

Sorry to be vague, but every market is different, and to some extent, every gig is different.

All good points, and yes I realized that it isn't an easy question to answer. At the very least, it will vary widely by market.

To comment on some of your questions: The budget is generally low, but I'm nudging them upwards. There are no overdubs, but the mix is done in post. And the music would generally be termed "folk", though that can run from your basic singer/songwriter (one voice, one guitar) through a full rock ensemble with drums and percussion. The funny thing is, though, that I don't always find that the simplest shows turn out to be the easiest to mix.

I have no idea what others would charge for the same work, but I have the sense that it's probably quite a bit more than I charge. That's really what I was trying to figure out here.

I think I do good work, and the customer seems to agree. But sometimes I wonder whether most people can really tell when the work is "good". I'm amazed at how often I find myself sweating over some detail that no one else seems to notice.

I could post a link to some of my recordings, but frankly I think that the MP3 process does a lot of damage to them. But if anyone thinks they'd enjoy listening to Kasey Chambers, Rodney Crowell, Tim O'Brien, or Darol Anger, here's where you'd find them:

http://www.folkalley.com/music/livefrom/

(The others on the page aren't my work.)

[henryrobinett]

For me, I've been doing a lot of remote work even since the first of the year. Six projects started and completed so far in 2007. For part time, for me, that's not bad. Three more booked already.

[Remoteness]

Well, we're half way through 2007.

How's the location business treating you these days?

Has 2007 been as busy for you as it has been for many of us?

And, how about your summer and fall schedule?

Are you looking good or look no further?

[cppi]

It's been great for us this first quarter and the 2nd looks awsome. Booking more multi-day arena gigs with the truck and alot of one off's. It's been Wonderful!!!

[Plush]

Fully booked here.
We could not be doing any more work here than we are doing. Every day is booked from now until November 1.
International work is also picking up in Germany and France.

Our policy is to maintain sanity and a good and fresh attitude.
Also I will not over work and tire out. I refuse to do it since I already did done it.

You want it when. . .???????

[huub]

Interesting..
Is this a u.s. specific development you think?
What I'm noticing here in europe that in our field of work (I work for a fairly big outside broadcast company) that if there's money enough, or the concert is being broadcast live, there'll be a big truck (basically only two companies I ever see: fleetwood mobiles, or Will shapland), and if there isn't enough money, the mix/multitrack will either be in our video truck (yeaah, happy me!) which has really nice audio equipment b.t.w. , or, wich I see more and more: a digico/pyramix or venue/protools combination, with the p.a. guys multitracking... The katie melua dvd we did was done this way for example, they only got timecode from us, (well, I can understand that they didn't want to clock their whole system to our video)

[nobasil]

Anyone else outside of this USA want to comment on this trend and the state of the biz? Brazil, Ireland, Slovakia, Portugal? [this is slightly personal since I'm considering moving to a city with a bigger market.]

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Plush

Our policy is to maintain sanity and a good and fresh attitude. Also I will not over work and tire out. I refuse to do it since I already did done it. You want it when. . .???????

This makes so much sense. Plushy knows the biz. We are our own worst enemy saying to the client that we can do their ridiculous rush job.

[Rusty Cage]

Hello from Australia...

The Age: Instant live CDs put brass in musicians' pockets - article

"We did a concert for the Dalai Lama at a 13,000-capacity venue in Canada. Thirty minutes after the show, we'd produced and sold 8000 copies."

SALT / NFF are taking off at an incredible rate. Not sure if any of their guys post or lurk here. It's still early days though, they're heavily reliant on volunteer work to publish mixes of the live shows. I've done a few of these, it gave me an opportunity to view the operation from the inside and swap some notes with them.

New Found Frequency - Your Live Music Network

Their engagement model is to deal with the venues while my humble little business works directly with artists. NFF's volume of work absolutely beggars mine (a few dozen shows a year). A real eye-opener.

Austin
www.myspace.com/rustycagerecordings

[cajonezzz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_Nation


As a previous subsidiary of Clear Channel Communications under the Clear Channel Entertainment name, Live Nation was party to some highly visible controversies. The 2005 SEC filing for the creation of Live Nation listed several reasons for pursuing the split, including avoiding regulatory and legal pitfalls faced by Clear Channel.
[edit]Live music recordings
In 2004, Clear Channel acquired a key patent in the process of producing Instant Live recordings, in which a live performance is recorded directly from the sound engineer's console during the show, and then rapidly burned on CD so that audience members can buy copies of the show as they are leaving the venue. This had been intended to provide additional revenue to the artist, venue, and promoter, as well as stifle the demand for unauthorized bootleg concert recordings made by audience members for profit. However, some media critics, as well as smaller business rivals, believed that Clear Channel was using the patent (on the process of adding cues to the beginning and ending of tracks during recording, so that the concert is not burned as a single enormous track) to drive competitors out of business or force them to pay licensing fees, even if they do not use precisely the same process. The patent was transferred to Live Nation when Clear Channel Entertainment was spun off,[1], but the patent was revoked on March 13, 2007[2], after it was found that this patent infringed on a prior patent granted for Telex.


any remotesters been working for this company? I've got a client that is specing the venue based recording rigs.
HUNDREDS of DSD based multi trackers, going on permanent install.

I'll find more scoop today, but it sure seems that they are going to lock down the live events market-- Clearchannel style.

[bishopthomas]

So, I thought I'd bring this thread back from the dead. I've noticed a couple of things that look promising at least for the publicity of our industry. First is an obvious increase in population here in the forum. While more people means more problems, it also means more opportunity. Say what you want (in another thread of course) about the quality of the Remote Possibilities forum, but I am very excited to see new people learning new ideas and sharing experiences of their own.

Secondly, it seems that the demand - and therefore the price - of HD24's have gone up dramatically recently. Around a year ago I had trouble selling mine for $800. Now they're flying off the shelf for $1000. I'll never get a good deal on one now, but that just means location recording is becoming more popular. Of course you could argue that the only reason for that is because studios are folding and recording concerts are so easy and cheap that an HD24 is as much a part of a band's gear as a guitar amp.

What do you think these things say for the industry at large? Is business about to pick up (live production is where the money is shifting from studio releases), or are there just more people catching on that live recording isn't that hard to do a mediocre job at?

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Remote recording always has been for us an add on to our normal business which is mastering and video production. We do mostly classical or acoustic remote recordings and recently have been asked to do video recordings of the concerts as well.

There are lots of people in this part of Ohio doing remote recordings and some of them are quite good. Some are not so good and some have more money than brains and have outfitted themselves with equipment from GC and even though they do not know an XLR from a power plug are saying that they are "remote recording engineers". Hopefully they will either gain experience very quickly or they will soon be doing something else.

The client/consumer knows what is happening in this market place and is either asking for lower rates or finding someone else to do their recording for a cheaper rate. They usually get exactly what they are not paying for.

Our business has been steady and we have some great clients.

Best of luck to everyone who is in the remote recording business and is staying business healthy in this economy.

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Secondly, it seems that the demand - and therefore the price - of HD24's have gone up dramatically recently. Around a year ago I had trouble selling mine for $800. Now they're flying off the shelf for $1000. I'll never get a good deal on one now, but that just means location recording is becoming more popular. Of course you could argue that the only reason for that is because studios are folding and recording concerts are so easy and cheap that an HD24 is as much a part of a band's gear as a guitar amp.

I knew I should have picked one up about this time last year too!!

[John Suitcase]

The one change I've noticed is that every studio now offers a remote rig or service. Why not, with the low cost of location gear.

[Plush]

Certainly we are adding clients and new projects here. I guess I chalk it up to arts organizations realizing that in bad economic times, one needs to set oneself apart from the ordinary. Having good audio for broadcast, records, websites is more important now. One music publisher I work for is expanding the types of music they offer and is recording eveything they have. This means a lot of new work.

Rates are not able to be raised in this environment however.