Recording a Violin Section

[moosamix]

Helloo Guys....

I have recording session this week for recording classical chillout.

we will have 3 violins, and one cello...I have NT4 Rode Mic RØDE Microphones - NT4

and big stand to hang it as overhead. The vocal booth measures 4 * 5 meters.

Im using preamp ultragain behringer http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/shop_i...9b488e2680.jpg


any advice to get thick warm violins section sound .. ? techniques ?



Thanks alot

[radiated]

If you want thick, warm violins, tell them to play with lots of vibrato and avoid the e-string :)

[fifthcircle]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you aren't going to get a thick warm sound with a RODE microphone and Behringer preamp. Not sure if you are trying for a section (orchestra) sound, but 4 players aren't going to give you that either- even with overdubs.

Do you have the ability to rent mics and/or pres? There are plenty of mics and pres that will give you first rate results. Just depends on what is available. Perhaps a very warm tube pre (ie Tubetec or similar) with a more transient mic (say a KM140 or Schoeps MK4) or a ribbon mic with a solid state pre... Lots of ways to get the sound you are after.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by radiated

If you want thick, warm violins, tell them to play with lots of vibrato and avoid the e-string :)

I would disagree, it is fairly common practise to play very lean vibrato for session work. The e-string works fine and playing lower posisions generally generally benefits intonation.

The best way to get a big lush sound is by using 34 violins and excellent mics.
The room is of utmost importance with strings.
I have never recorded strings in a small room, and I never will.
Could you get acess to a local church for this?

You don't have the right equipment for the job.
call local studios and ask to rent some high quality mics and preamps.

[Chris Wilson]

The room is of utmost importance with strings.
I have never recorded strings in a small room, and I never will.

Very well put. When it comes to strings, you are doomed without the right space. And, telling string players how to play goes over about as well as string players telling an engineer how to record. Even the composer has only about ten minutes of rehearsal time before the musicians write him/her off. A conductor gets about five.

[joelpatterson]

Ah, the Voices of Doom checking in, I see...

I'd say the secret to "thick and warm" with the thin and brittle gear you're going to use is to roll off quite a bit of the high end. Even Rode's and Behringer's are "okay" for bottomy stuff, it's the definition in the high end where they really fall short.

It's amazing the "quality" results you can fake with cheap gear, it ain't easy or straightforward, but it can be done.

[krs]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I would disagree, it is fairly common practise to play very lean vibrato for session work. The e-string works fine and playing lower posisions generally generally benefits intonation.

Amen

[astronmr20]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Don't take this the wrong way, but you aren't going to get a thick warm sound with a RODE microphone and Behringer preamp. Not sure if you are trying for a section (orchestra) sound, but 4 players aren't going to give you that either- even with overdubs.

Do you have the ability to rent mics and/or pres? There are plenty of mics and pres that will give you first rate results. Just depends on what is available. Perhaps a very warm tube pre (ie Tubetec or similar) with a more transient mic (say a KM140 or Schoeps MK4) or a ribbon mic with a solid state pre... Lots of ways to get the sound you are after.

--Ben

I couldn't disagree more.


Space/technique, performace, mic position. In a simple setup like this, gear is secondary to all those things just mentioned.

4 violins can't wound warm? Anyone every heard of a little group called the Kronos Quartet?

Is a single viola not "warm," when played well?

You will be fine with the gear you have. Experiment with positioning and rooms.

[NorseHorse]

Excellent points, Astronomer.

Moosamix, it sounds like you aren't making something for national release, so don't worry about spending a ton of money renting equipment. The NT4 is a versatile mic and will capture the strings fine. The NT4/5 capsules can be pretty bright, so you might need to tame that in order to make the strings sound warmer.

I agree with many of the other posters in regards to space. Doing the recording in a vocal booth or iso room is probably the last place you should record them. Recording the strings in your garage with the mic moved back some will probably yield better results.

PreSonus Firepod preamps aren't very clean and this becomes apparent on soft sources. I haven't used the Behringer pre, but I'd guess it sounds similar.

Also, the string players make a MASSIVE difference. I recorded an orchestra of area professional with MXL 993s doing a community concert of Handel's Messiah, and it sounded amazing close to several other national-commercial-release Messiah recordings I heard throughout the season. The key: the string players rocked. When they're playing in tune, in time, with dignity and discretion, it can make you sound awesome. I recorded a middle school / high school string program shortly after that, and it was a totally different story...

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by astronmr20

4 violins can't wound warm? Anyone every heard of a little group called the Kronos Quartet?

Um... I think Ben is pretty familiar with the miking techniques for the Kronos quartet.

[Remoteness]

Inexpensive (low-end) gear just takes you a lot longer to get the sound you want.
Sometimes it will take you a lifetime to make it right.

Expensive (high-end) gear usually makes your life go much easier when you approach the set up on point and execute to your needs correctly.

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Ah, the Voices of Doom checking in, I see...

I'd say the secret to "thick and warm" with the thin and brittle gear you're going to use is to roll off quite a bit of the high end. Even Rode's and Behringer's are "okay" for bottomy stuff, it's the definition in the high end where they really fall short.

It's amazing the "quality" results you can fake with cheap gear, it ain't easy or straightforward, but it can be done.

[astronmr20]

Originally Posted by David Rick

Um... I think Ben is pretty familiar with the miking techniques for the Kronos quartet.

Oops..



Did I just insult one of their engineers? ? Or players?


If so, foot will not be removed from mouth for quite some time.

[fifthcircle]

One of my good friends happens be one of Kronos's engineers... He records and does their sound reinforcement. I can tell you in great detail how they approach sound, actually.

Now, there is a big difference between a seasoned (or even inexperienced) string quartet and a couple violins. Also, while mic technique can lessen the problems with certain microphones (believe me, I have to do this when I'm doing my "less glamorous" jobs- usually for folks that don't have a rig like mine). That being said, the gear mentioned here is not exactly known for "big and rich" sounds. Big rich sounds can come from tube mics, preamps with lots of iron in the signal chain, etc... Big and clean would be something like Schoeps mics with an API, Neve, or A-Designs preamp.

There are, of course, lots of ways to approach things, but I also call it as I see it. With the rig that was mentioned at the top of this thread, IMNSHO, you aren't going to get a warm sound. Sorry to step on toes, but that is the way I see it.

Now, on another slightly different note, don't count on being able to EQ or process your way to the sound that you are looking for. If it doesn't get in the can right, you're going to have issues for the rest of the recording process. I find that when you try to EQ a bright source so it doesn't sound so bright, it just ends up sounding dead. You can EQ some darker sources (say ribbon mics for example) up and get the sheen or extra sparkle easier.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

It is a small world indeed as my wife and I went to school with their new cellist (a sweet guy and the best of players)
I believe I recorded most of his recitals with a pair of Km184s and the pre's from a mackie mixer. He sounded great and warm desipte the equipment, not due to my skills, but due to the best chamber hall I have set foot in and more importantly excellent playing.

The thing is, in many ways great players in great halls are fairly easy to record. Medium level players in a studio is an entirely different matter.
getting a backing sound from strings for a mix is done with large numbers of players and is very different from capturing a quartet playing well written and well rehersed music for quartet.

[fifthcircle]

Funny-

I went to school with their cellist as well... It is a very small world.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

Thats right, he went to eastman for his undergrad with Paul Katz and came to Rice when Katz was bought out by Rice (he was later replaced by Lynn Harrel while I was in my masters there)
It is a very small world indeed. We probably hve a bunch of friends in common from the violists and cellists that came with the two Katz (Martha and Paul) when they were hired by Rice.
I ran into Jeff in the corridors at work a few years back when he just started out with Kronos. Just came out of the practice room at work and bumped into him. Weird thing as we had lockers next to each other back in school, I was a little confused as he was kind of on the wrong continent.

He seems so happy with the gig and I got the feeling the group really appreciates their new member quite a bit. He is a total pro and very relaxed at the same time.

[Svens]

in answer to your question: as a start, try to "sort of close mic" the instruments (2-3 feet) and put a stereo pair as an "ambiance" mic (the NT4 is stereo right) so that the X&Y are capturing all the musicians. Experiment with distance and height on your stereo "ambiance" mics.

You have Rode and Behringer, which is not super high-end, but still, if the musicians perform well, that shouldnt be too much of a problem. Good luck!