How to amplify a string-orchestra and piano

[Westmalle]

I need to advise a P.A.-firm on how to amplify this string-orchestra:

YouTube - Timur und Seine Mannschaft part 3

6 first violins, 5 second violins, 4 altos, 4 cellos and one double bass.
and piano (Bösendorfer 225)

It is a festival with 100.000 daily visitors, with more than 30 stages spread all around the city.
The P.A. system is a big one, and there will be 3000 people on the square listening to it.

Any idea how this best works?

- Should the lid of the piano be closed, in order to avoid feedback from the P.A. system?
- Will the P.A.-sound affect the musicians ability to hear eachother, and make a good balance?
- monitors can create feedback also...

Which mikes need to be used for this?
Sort of "clip-on" microphones for the string players?
And, if these are not available what mikes are a good alternative?
Also, should there be monitor-speakers for the musicians?

[fifthcircle]

How is the stage set up? Are there walls or ceilings?

I would recommend micing the orchestra along the ways that you would record it... You will need a well-tuned sound system and it isn't about making it loud. Rather fidelity is your first priority. Make it sound so that the sound is even from the stage to the back of the audience. You should only know how loud the system is/perceive the clarity it causes if you turn it off. Another way to think is that you are providing subtle reinforcement rather than amplification.

Here is a photo from this year's Ojai Festival here in Los Angeles. The piece is the Pergolesi Stabat Mater- a similar sized orchestra, but with 2 vocal soloists instead of a piano.

The micing was as follows for the PA:

Decca Tree hung over the conductor- 3x DPA 4006, 50mm APE sphere, about a 1m tree.
Flanks- 2x Schoeps CMC5MK2

Each string section had 1 mic at the front of the section to add detail to the sound. Violins were Schoeps CMC6MK4, Viola and Cello was a Neumann KM84. Bass was an SE Electronics Z3300a. Organ (a little console pipe organ), was a Schoeps CMC5MK5.

Vocal solos were Sennheiser MKH8040

A Lexicon 960 provided the system reverb (3 programs used- 2 for ensemble verb and 1 for surround)

As you can see, here we had a small shell to help a bit, but there were still plenty of people out under the truss which has no acoustic. Even without walls, I would mic this way for this group, but would probably have to rely on the section mics more.

I try to avoid the clipon mics whenever possible because you really loose the section sound when you use them. If you do, use only the DPA 4061s as the other clipons out there are way to bright for classical music. Also, if you use clipon, the overhead mics just become that much more important.

--Ben

[Roland]

I have a similar job comming up with the English Chamber Orchestra. Although you can get away with using a similar system to the type you would use to record an orchestra in my experience this doesn't work very successfully as the acoustics of the "shell stages" that tend to be used are pretty dreadful. I would instead stick to a one mic per desk philosophy. You can get away without brass section mics (they are loud enough to bleed into everything), but tuned percussion and horns benefit from micing. You also need a decent reverb to "float the sound". I used a very similar technique to this last week with the Band of the Royal Marines and results were extremely good.


Regards




Roland

[Roland]

Some pictures!


Roland

[Westmalle]

The "mikes" I use for recording are 1 Soundfield SPS 422 system.

Do you think that this, with some condenser spot microphones for each section, passing trough a reverb unit could do the job?

When recording with the Soundfield, it is rather difficult to make a balance between the piano and the strings, because the pianist plays VERY loud.
The strings are placed in a circle around the piano, and the pianist conducts them,
facing the public with his back.
The same day a couple of pop-music bands appear on the same stage.
So essentially I cannot predict the quality of the amplification system.

And less then hundred meters away, at the other side of the square, D.J.'s are playing loud music as well.

I have not contacted the technicians of the P.A.-firm yet.
All I saw them doing in the previous years, with folk-music (all acoustic instruments) ,
was close miking techniques.

Thanks for helping me out!
I will contact them and try to convince them not to use SM-58's on every single violin....

So you don't use any monitor-speakers?

[Westmalle]

<<I would instead stick to a one mic per desk philosophy.>>

Do you mean 1 mike for each 2 players?

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Is that an inflatable bandshell?? That must be fun!!!!

We work with the symphony here for concerts @ the Zoo and do a combination of spot and section mics. All condensers, a combination of Shure and AKG. SDC for spots, and LDC for sections. Spots on the principal players of each chair for 1st & 2nd violin, viola, cello, and bass, spots on perc.,tympani, and harp. Section mics for woodwinds, brass, and horns. We close mic the piano with (2) 414's hi & lo. No monitors needed. Our typical audience size is 3000 - 3500.

[Roland]

Yes, it was an inflatable shell, my assistant on the gig noticed a little bit of "hiss" on the system, not hiss I told him but the sound of the air blown round the shell! Personally I prefer hard shell domes, but the stage was supplied by someone else, when the band played you were not aware of it at all.

The Soundfield isn't (IMHO) suitable for this sort of job. Most of my work is location classical recording, however, you have to throw out your preconceptions with PA, it's a different discipline, what is required is a different way of thinking, the same goes for rock recording as against classical or jazz. Appropriate for the situation is the watchword.

Regards


Roland

[Jim vanBergen]

For the Metropolitan Opera's Summer Parks Concert tours (which are on hiatus this year) we used a large, distributed system which takes a long time to set up and time delay properly, but makes a large outdoor venue sound closer to the concert hall- and we were able to support 100,000 people.

I like Decca tree placement with subcardioids for outdoors; you can get great sound with individual miking or section miking and some spot mics- whatever works for you!

I would try to get the PA as close to the audience and far in front of the orchestra as possible. Getting good gian before feedback is key, and the laws of physics are in total control.

-If you want to use clip mics for strings, I like Sennheiser MKE-2 and DPA 4061s the best. (If you decide to go this route, WARN THE MUSICIANS so they don't bring their best violin. Most won't for an outdoor concert anyway, but you don't want the first chair/concertmaster to refuse the mic because he/she is playing a million dollar tradivarius or $400,000 Guenari violin.)

-If you have an orchestra shell, the musicians should not require monitors.

-Open or closed for piano depends on many things, and I would open a dialogue with the conductor and pianist before moving forward.

-Get a seating & stand layout from the librarian, mark it up with your mic placement, and ask the librarian and conductor to review in advance to insure it works.

Hope this helps!

JvB

[Westmalle]

This is the stage....
The P.A. speakers are directly left and right from the stage.

[Roland]

You are talking 20 string players and a piano (I am guessing if this is a mozrt piano concerto etc there may be some woodwind and horns involved). The stage isn't large for that number of players (the piano is around 7ft). With the PA in that proximity you need to be in fairly close, your Soundfield, or the other wide section micing some have mentioned won't work. Either DPA mini's with string hangers (they fit close to the bridge) or 1 mic per desk (i.e. pair of players). It goes without saying that you don't want to be using monitors.

If on the outside chance we are all reading it wrong and it's some ballad rock thing with piano, strings, maybe even a vocal you may need to rethink and go in even closer, if monitors are needed even headphones/in-ears may be required. The thing to remember is what is required, (bearing in mind the type of performance), what are the limitations, (site, coverage required, location of the speaker stacks). What is the best that bearing in mind the other two can be reasonably achieved.

Good luck whichever way you go.

Regards


Roland