Poor man's Sennheiser MKH800/ DPA4011/ Schoeps MK21

[Sonic Lush]

Originally Posted by mljung

But where is the border between mid-line and top shelf. Even the most expensive microphones have their con's.
Is a DPA 4006 always better than a KSM 141..? I don't believe so.

It's not as easy as just buying the most expensive you can get!

I really like this thread and wanted to add:

I wouldn't use a 4006 in every situation, nor a KSM141.

Both are fantastic mics, each with its own strengths.

No mic is a total all-rounder
(except maybe an, insert ______ mic here, which is the perfect mic for almost every need I have).

I think it comes down to:

1. what you ARE ABLE to hear
and
2. knowing what you WANT to hear.


The border between mid and top-shelf microphones is a very arbitrary, random line growing more vast and blurry all the time; and here's us: trying to figure out for ourselves where each mic's usefulness lies, filtered through WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE SAYS, figured against our budget and divided by our patience to wait for the good stuff but still needing to do the work at hand and sometimes (read: many times, maybe all the time) settling for something less than top-shelf and still producing quite admirable work, but still always wondering...wondering what it would sound like if I only had an X MIC instead of, my x mic.

In closing, with 24 bit dynamic range and excellent electronics, converters and performers and instruments and rooms....cheap mics will get shown up with a QUICKNESS. every time. Maybe it's a little more obscured by some of those variables being less than top-notch themselves, but eventually the cheap sounding mic will be revealed TO SOMEONE who can tell.

I think there's a reason the more costly tried and true mics (ie, Schoeps, Neumann, Gefell, Sennheiser, DPA, AKG and all the others I didn't mention) are the go-to sound capture tools for this type of work.

Maybe I've had too much to drink.


(and again, Remoteness so eloquently states using few words what I'm blathering on about)

[666666]

I could start a new thread on this, but since it is related to the topic here:

Anyone care to compare the Beyerdynamic MC-930 to the Audio Technica AT4051a? They're both in the same general price range, $500 - $600 a pop.

I've used the AT4051a and was very impressed, especially considering the price. Never heard an MC-930 but I'm curious.

The cardioid AT4051a has a swappable element, can be fitted with a hypercardioid AT4053a element which is also excellent. An omni AT4049a element also existed for this mic but is no longer available new.

The MC-930...? Don't know much about these, it appears they are fixed cardioid only.

Please compare in terms of sonic behavior / performance.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by mljung

Is a DPA 4006 always better than a KSM 141..? I don't believe so. It's not as easy as just buying the most expensive you can get!

Good point - learning how to use the stuff comes first... I think that from a certain level of quality upwards, mic placement matters even more than an individual mic's quality... Just as great preamps and converters don't automatically make great recordings, great mics can't do so, either...

Originally Posted by ABBA

By the way - I also like really the AKG 480 alot but I'm too scared to own them myself. I've used them several times and very often they just stop working. It has happened to me and several of my recording friends using different 480s. I've asked AKG about this but their reply was something like: they are just as reliable as other mics. Which is BS.

Strange - no 460 or 480 has ever failed me in mid-operation...

[ISedlacek]

So on Thursday, I will finally have a pair of 8040s here ... I am very curious ... will report...

[mljung]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

So on Thursday, I will finally have a pair of 8040s here ... I am very curious ... will report...

Ivo,

I am [and I'm sure a lot of other users at this forum are] looking forward to your findings. You're always very thorough and really have your ideals about sound, which I believe I share a long way. And since I know you have a lot of experiences with Schoeps microphones, it'll be very interesting to hear how these compare.

I have been interested in getting either a pair of 8020 or 8040 myself for quite some time, and although I know you haven't access the 8020 it'll still be interesting to hear how close to an "omni sound" the 8040 is in your opinion - since I know from your posts that you prefer omni's for almost all your work, and have ditched quite a few cardioid's because you didn't like their sound.

Mads

[videoteque]

Originally Posted by mljung

Ivo,

I am [and I'm sure a lot of other users at this forum are] looking forward to your findings. You're always very thorough and really have your ideals about sound, which I believe I share a long way. And since I know you have a lot of experiences with Schoeps microphones, it'll be very interesting to hear how these compare.

What mljung means is that we love you!!!

[John Willett]

I got my MKH 8040 stereoset yesterday.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I got my MKH 8040 stereoset yesterday.

Oh oh - and have you already tried it ?

[mljung]

...it's getting better and better

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Oh oh - and have you already tried it ?

Not really, only a couple of quick trials - which is why I bought them.

But I'm off to the Whitley Bay Jazz Festival tomorrow with them and a Nagra VI to do some recording.

I hope to get some recordings of the Bratislave Hot Serenaders, who are here this year.

Then I'll be off to the Tatra mountains for a week or two (and maybe get some Slovak Folk Groups)

[springer]

Originally Posted by ABBA

By the way - I also like really the AKG 480 alot but I'm too scared to own them myself.
I've used them several times and very often they just stop working.
It has happened to me and several of my recording friends using different 480s.

I have to chime in as well on the AKG c480's - NEVER had a problem with mine that have been in use using both CK61 and CK62 caps for three years now. These are as rock solid and good sounding mics as any I have owned including Gefell, DPA, and Neumann.
Cords are a more likely suspect for the type of problem you had ABBA. Your experience sounds rare to me.

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by mljung

One mic that I know belongs here is the Shure KSM 141. Both Cardioid and Omni, supposed to be very good.
I think it was Plush who mentioned it was actually modeled after Schoeps, but the price is less than half.

Haven't tried them myself, but heard a lot of good things about them and I'm sure they deserve to be on this list.

If anyone have compared Schoeps and KSM 141 maybe they could chime in!

Plush did indeed recommend them, and if memory serves, was involved in their development, if not design.

I own the KSM 137, very similar to the 141, and Schoeps MK2S. I've had occasion to compare them directly several times. Yes, the MK2S is an omni, where as the 137 is a card - however - on a direct subjective comparison, I've found they are "voiced" very similarly. The MK2s, as you know, is an "edge of the diffuse field" capsule, and has a high end lift. It tends towards bright. The 137 has this characteristic, as well. Can you tell them apart? Indeed, you can. The Schoeps has that intangible smoothness, an ability to reach into the sound field, something the Shure can't quite do. That said, the Shure is an excellent microphone, especially considering it's price.

This very topic has been beat to death before. Yes, it is fun to talk about (would be even more fun in person!), however - it always comes to this point (JvB made it earlier). "You Get What You Pay For" (and even the MKH 8000 Series, considered a bargain, but at over $2000, in my esteem is NOT cheap!)!!

And, as JvB said - save up and get what your ears tell you you really need. Man, the money I've wasted - and I know lots of others here can say that, too.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by springer

I have to chime in as well on the AKG c480's - NEVER had a problem with mine that have been in use using both CK61 and CK62 caps for three years now. These are as rock solid and good sounding mics as any I have owned including Gefell, DPA, and Neumann.
Cords are a more likely suspect for the type of problem you had ABBA. Your experience sounds rare to me.

Springer, The C480 is a nice mic, but do you really consider the AKG C480 as the poor man's MKH800, DPA4011 or Schoeps MK21?

IMO, it sounds so different than the other mics do collectively or individually.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Springer, The C480 is a nice mic, but do you really consider the AKG C480 as the poor man's MKH800, DPA4011 or Schoeps MK21?

IMO, it sounds so different than the other mics do collectively or individually.

Hi Steve,
Yes - to my aging, crusty ears the 480/61 sounds very similar to B&K 4011's I use. (At least in ORTF ensemble apps; maybe different in near field.???) Also don't know if the sound is vastly diff from older B&K 4011's to the newer 4011-TL's that are currently out???
Patrick

[fifthcircle]

To be honest, I wouldn't even consider the MKH8000 series to be a poor mans MKH800. They are all pretty different sounding mics.

If you are aiming for quality at a price point, the 480 isn't bad, but it isn't IMO anywhere close to the mics listed in the title of this thread. In my personal rig, I spent years of getting "the poor man's" version of XXXX. I found that I was never happy and I always ended up getting what I really wanted in the end.

My take is that it is better to have a better quality but smaller kit than have a kit that is larger, but not exactly what you want or need.

--Ben

[Remoteness]

The AKG C480s are for sure nice sounding mics.

[Remoteness]

When it comes to microphone purchases (and everything else for that matter) it's better to play a 'poor man" on TV than to be a poor man in real life.

IMO, you just have to hold out, save your bread and buy the mics that sound the best to your ear.

Doing anything else just makes you work harder capturing the right sound.

[jnorman]

i am also a fan of the AKG C480 mics, and IME they stood up very well against my DPA 4011s. i also quite like the AT4051s for all kinds of acoustic appplications in the studio and as a main ORTF pair. and very affordable...

while nice mics are fun, they are sometimes outrageously expensive for a very small difference in sound (IMHO). so, even after having owned schoeps and DPAs, i have no problem using much less expensive mics, though i do tend to stay away from bottom feeders.

the real key to getting a decent recording is the space, not the mics. even medium line mics are pretty darn good these days, and if the performance is good and the space is good, it is often quite impossible to tell whether the recording was made with $1000 pair of mics or a $4000 pair of mics.

all that said, pay attention to what ben maas and john willet say - they are both very experienced pros and give great advice.

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by jnorman

all that said, pay attention to what ben maas and john willet say - they are both very experienced pros and give great advice.

!!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

To be honest, I wouldn't even consider the MKH8000 series to be a poor mans MKH800. They are all pretty different sounding mics.

Interesting you say this, as the MKH 800 was the basis for the design of the MKH 8000 series.

Having said this, I must admit that I have not yet had my MKH 800s and MKH 8040s up side by side.

[fifthcircle]

They have some similar characteristics- for example the "reach" you can get into a sound source with them. However, the tonal characteristics while from the same camp are different IMO.

All of Sennheiser's mics have a certain sound. These can be included, but as we all know, it is those minute differences that give us the tools to shape the sound of a recording. These mics are like any other- individual in their own ways.

--Ben

[fafalio]

here the rich and the poor man

Smokin' Condensers - A roundup of seven small-diaphragm cardiod-pattern condenser microphones

best regards.

Alessandro.

[VukOnCrack]

Originally Posted by fafalio

here the rich and the poor man

Smokin' Condensers - A roundup of seven small-diaphragm cardiod-pattern condenser microphones

best regards.

Alessandro.

I'd like to go back to those 2004 prices. The price for the MK4 set is quoted as "$2,165 per mic pair" in that article. Almost a grand less than a got my MK21 pair for last year pre-price increase.