Upright bass recording technics

[Switchcraft]

people, I searched for a thread on technics for recording upright bass and didnt really come up with much.
So what are you doing?
Sounds I like, anything from Ron Carter (obviously), Glove, the Ron Carter stuff on the tribe called Quest records.

echoy rooms? damp rooms? multi mic, one mic, direct boxes from Fishman? I have been experimenting and havent found anything exactly the way I want. Obviously, this is an acoustic instrument so the bass is the biggest issue, but avoiding that what can I do to tame clicks and boxy sounds. What are you doing succesfully?
I cannot capture that upright bass narl that is heard when you play mid register around D on the A string and A on the D string. Do you mic the neck specifically? F hole? Top of the neck down, 6 foot away? multi mic?
thanks

[fifthcircle]

I try to avoid direct boxes whenever possible... If I am forced into using one (ie live performance where I have the bass sitting next to the drums), I use a good fat tube direct- usually an ADL200.

As for mics, my favorite is probably a U47FET, but I've had great luck with UM 57, KM86, KM140/184, MD421, and MKH40. I position it on the high string side, usually towards the top of the f-hole. Depending on the instrument, that position may change a bit... The high string side is important as micing on the other side tends to give a "woofier" sound.

Another good position for a Small-D condenser is to wrap the mic in foam and place it under the bridge of the instrument facing up towards the fingerboard. Have to be careful not to put too much foam in as it can reduce the vibrations of the bridge and top plate of the instrument.

When recording bass in a jazz session context, I'll usually gobo off the player, but it is important for the player to see everybody else. If it is just an overdub situation, I'll put the player in a big room that is relatively dry.

--Ben

[bloodstone]

My biggest successes with the double bass fiddle have always been with an AKG 414 BULS 6-12" away, aimed somewhere near an f-hole at about the height of the bridge. I have also tracked DI with this as well and blended them together at mixdown. It can be a pretty tough instrument to record well.

[CrazyBeast]

A couple weeks ago I used a Beyer260dx -> tele v78 -> trakker. About 9-12 inches back, pointing towards the high string side of the f-hole. Also used a omni small-d mic for a room mic.

Haven't mixed that track yet, but the tone was perfect for the song. Like everything, it really depends how much room in the mix you want the track to take. In this particular case the song is pretty sparse - so a nice big, warm roomy sound was in order...

I've also liked a 421 in place of the beyer for the close mic before, for a more "contained" sound.

Fun instrument to record I think!

[PRobb]

Upright bass is one of the more difficult instuments to record well. The challange is to balance lo end "boom" with presence. A few thing to keep in mind. The F-holes are bass ports. So aiming the mics toward or away from them is going to affect the balance. Also angling the mic toward the floor will be darker than angling it up.
I have had good results with the mic on the hi string side, at the height of the bottom of the neck looking at where the player's fingers pluck the strings.
Although I recently did a 20s style jazz band band live in a large room with no gobos and no headphones. The sound of the bass woofing into the horn and drum mics was so cool, the mic on the bass was just barely used in the mix.

[mig27]

I second the vote for an U47 fet.
But I like it best aiming straight at the bridge.

A good (beefy) pre helps.

Cheers,


Michael

[Switchcraft]

Some difference of opinion. Thats good. I am using a U195 and a AKG C2000. i am struggling to get a decent sound.
i wanna get a little more narl in the sound (damn that sounds dumb). I am still not happy with the sound. I think I need to add a second mic to pick up the fret board sound.
is anyone useing 2 mics?

[joeq]

Originally posted by Switchcraft

is anyone useing 2 mics?

I just recently used a U195 on upright, and added a SDC near the neck to pick up some "fingers" - nice.

while it may seem like sacrilege to some, I must admit I always take a direct line as well if the player has a pickup. it depends on the musical style, of course, but you never know when you are going to need that tone at mixdown. I love the sound of acoustic bass, but if the music has pop or rock elements, that direct sound can be really helpful in getting the bass to fit with the track.

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by mig27
I second the vote for an U47 fet.
But I like it best aiming straight at the bridge.

I've had good luck with this method too, for the lower frequencies using the iFET7 in the "I" mode in my particular case. It's far too boomy and uneven when too close to the F hole. Combined that with my vintage Neumann small diaphragm KM86 in cardiod up by the fretboard for the attack/highs...and triple check phase relationship.

[PRobb]

Originally posted by Switchcraft
Some difference of opinion. Thats good. I am using a U195 and a AKG C2000. i am struggling to get a decent sound. here is one recording. please disregard the playing,

Well theres your problem! As with all mic based recording , it comes down to the player. The key to any sound is the player and the instrument. Gear and mic technique can enhance the sound, but if it doesn't sound good in the room, there is only so much anyone can do.

[shikawkee]

When I had the pleasure of recording Lightning Chance's bass two years ago I put a Beyer 260 ribbon about a foot from the bass side f-hole, slightly off axis and another FET 47 up by the player's hands but pointed down toward the strings and it sounded just like it did on "Walking After Midnight". Kinda' scary actually....

[Dave Martin]

I'm not that big a fan of multiple miking uprights - mine or anyone elses. I'll generally go with a ribbon (either an RCA 74B or a Wes Dooley R84) somewhere around a foot in front of the bridge and towards the high side of the strings. when a condenser seems like a good idea, I'll put a Lawson L46MP in more or less the same place.

It works here...

[dale116dot7]

I usually work on bluegrass and rockabilly, so the tone I'm after is a bit different. I generally like a small diaphragm condensor, somewhere between the bridge and fingerboard, maybe 6" up from the strings, and over to the G string side by about 4", and I move it around to get the sound I'm after. But especially in rockabilly, a lot of the sound is the strings bashing against the fingerboard is nice, and I've found the SDC's reproduce that snap nicely. I like an older condensor such as an Altec M11 - it's quite dark, but I've also used C451's and C61's and they work well too - brighter though. Arco works well with a 47FET. I haven't worked with a ribbon myself (it's on my list) but they are supposed to be really good for upright. The late Roy Husky Jr. liked to use a 44.

Sometimes in jazz a pickup and DI is nice to get more articulation when a player is doing a lot of notes, so if the player offers it, it may not be a bad idea to track it. Some basses speak cleanly when playing a jazz solo, others are boomy and work well for slower stuff - a pickup may save you a lot of work. Not ideal but...

[Bob Olhsson]

My experience has been that the particular bass and the player make a bigger difference with acoustic bass than almost any other instrument I can think of.

[da burf]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
My experience has been that the particular bass and the player make a bigger difference with acoustic bass than almost any other instrument I can think of.

That's my experience aswell.

However:
I'm kind of limited in my mic- and prechoice, but got good results with U87 (older version) through amek DMCL. Worked good for jazzwork (drums:brushes), and with a bit of compression also for an 'I Wish' cover.
Last time I recorded one: Mic at about bridge height or a tad higher facing the 'treble side' f-hole, but please experiment with mic placement.

[elninojesus]

U47FET towards the bridge has always been awesome for jazz and I've also had good look with a 414BULS more pointed at the F-hole for bowed stuff.
But yeah, I also would agree the player has everything to do with the sound. I play really percussively and you can here a lot of string slapping so a sound that works for me might not work as well for someone that plays a bit smoother. I studied with Lynn Seaton for a while and he actually stuffed a Beta52 in his bridge instead of a pickup and it sounds awesome for his style of playing. A lot of players use gut or nylon strings as well which make a huge sound difference. I think even Ron Carter plays a nylon set.



Mark

[Ribbonmicguy]

I've used R44CX with very pleasing result.
I''ve also used Royer R122 with amazing result.
The R84 has helped me get what I want as well.
47Fet is nice as well.
Another one i've tried if the bass player is isolated, R84 12-18" away, with a KM184 on the finger neck, mix as needed.

The best position for me if using a single mic (best with royer) is about 10" up from f-hole pointing down towards the string. Very balanced fingering and fat sound (due to figure 8 capsule i guess)


But i agree with Dave. The player is the one that makes most difference.

[PlugHead]

Ditto on the R-121, and sometimes a Coles 4038, but the latest dbl. bass session was with a U67 in cardioid, about 2 feet back, but miced from the "side" of the bass, not the front. It was a nice, thick tone, with no boominess, and tons of detail - a very nice sound indeed

YMMV,

[sharpeleven]

acoustic bass sound is very sensitive to movement. Some bass palyers have a hard time keeping a steady distance to the mic(s) and the sound always suffers. Sometimes it helps to mark the sweet spot on the floor for them as a reference, but often I still find them inching closer and closer to the mic or in some instances moving the mic right to the f hole. Must be a habit from playing live...

Now I always place a dummy-mic right next to the instrument, as a sort of navigation aid & for placebo effect...

[shikawkee]

Hey Dave M., we used a single M88 on Friday to record upright and it sounded pretty durn good (we also used a DI too). Great mic that M88.

[jajjguy]

Originally posted by Switchcraft
i wanna get a little more narl in the sound

i think you need to play a bit harder and with more control. if by gnarl you mean the small of string buzz that actually adds to the presence and strength of the sound, that comes from skilled coordination between the right and left hands, sush as pressing down harder with the left hand when the note is plucked and then letting up, etc.
(recording technique has not so much to do with it.)

[LittleDogAudio]

Two Mics.

One near the F-hole usually a LDC
and
One near the fretboard usually a SDC

DI's suck.

I'm assuming that everyone doesn't have a U47 laying around.

Chris

[shikawkee]

DI's on uprights usually do suck but we got a pretty good signal thru a box I made with Valvotronics. We didn't even use the EQ section and I was shocked by how good it sounded. I'd say it gave us a useable track in addition to the mic which was a pleasant surprise.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by shikawkee
Hey Dave M., we used a single M88 on Friday to record upright and it sounded pretty durn good (we also used a DI too). Great mic that M88.

Excellent! I need to get some M88's....

[Switchcraft]

Does anyone have any experience recording a KYDD bass. they are electric uprights. My bass teach is Kydd. He says they are mostly used in studio. has anyone on this board recorded a band using one?
kyddbass.com

[RichT]

Originally posted by bloodstone
My biggest successes with the double bass fiddle have always been with an AKG 414 BULS 6-12" away, aimed somewhere near an f-hole at about the height of the bridge. I have also tracked DI with this as well and blended them together at mixdown. It can be a pretty tough instrument to record well.

Yup, I have used this technique as above on a couple of rock-a-billy and real ska recordings to great success.

Cheers,
Rich

[PRobb]

Interesting that a lot of people are talking about 121s and 47s and 4038s and other mics on the "dark" end of the spectrum. I've always felt you get the woof for free on an upright and the fight is for the presence. So I tend to go with 414s or 451s for stuff where the bass has to punch through electric guitars and big drums.
For all accoustic jazz , the darker mics work great.

And I second mdbeh's observation that plywood basses tend to record better than carved tops.

[kudzu]

Did some work with bassist John Pattitucci recently. He asked me to put a Km184i under the strings at the bridge pointing upwards...Used it with a FetU47 over the high string F hole...Worked great, although it has to be said he is one of the most precise players I've ever heard

[inaudio]

Best bass sound I got was a single 4050 at 6" right in front of the bridge. But then, Chris Kee is an awsome player and sounds great in the room. Room, instrument, and player are the essential things...

[Switchcraft]

Just wanted to thank yall for hte help.

i ended up getting a Kay bass and the improvement is better than i could imagine. Kays sound amazing for the money invested. Got mine for 800. its a 1951 and sounds great.

i have been micing it directly off of the bridge about 1.5 ft with a U195 Langevin mic pre and FATSO set to tranny buss compressor and 3 warmth..


sounds great. thanks for the tips.