Most Reliable Live Recording DAW?

Drumminkiger · 2nd July 2008, 07:11 AM

So lately I have been doing a lot of live recording around town with my protools le rig and there have been more and more occasions where i am limited by the number of tracks that i can record. I have been thinking about getting a lightpipe interface that can record up to 32 tracks such as the offerings from presonus and maudio so i then had to think, what is the best DAW to pair up with an interface like that? I would like to be able to record up to 24 tracks for at least an hour or two at a time so thats where the reliability thing comes into play. I like mixing in pro tools, so i plan on exporting the tracks after tracking. Any ideas out there?

uncle duncan · 2nd July 2008, 08:42 AM

Alesis HD24 Hard disk recorder. The problem would be bouncing 24 tracks back into LE, which will only let you use 18 inputs. You could pick up a used Motu 2408 interface, which has three banks of adat lightpipe = 24 channels. But again, since you can't use all 24 channels into PTLE, it looks like PTLE would be the weak link in your chain.

So, what's more important to you, mixing in PTLE with no ADC, or getting 24 tracks in one pass into your DAW? (a DAW that would have ADC, since PTLE is the only one that doesn't.) Motu Digital performer is quite handy with audio editing. The only thing it doesn't have is Beat Detective/Elastic Audio (at least it doesn't have polyphonic elastic audio - it's had graphic time stretch/shrink for years.) But if you normally don't have to fix things with Elastic Audio, you could just port a project over to PTLE in the rare case when you did need it.

What DP does have is a graphic pitch correction window, something you'd have to pay extra for in PTLE. I use DP's pitch correction window all the time for fixing vocals and such. I actually prefer it to Autotune, since it does not alter the sound the way Autotune does.

What I like about the HD24/motu solution is the fact that while you're transferring 24 tracks into DP, you can be putting in your markers and getting your mix set up, so it's not a totally wasted hour making the transfer in realtime. Then, you can do rough mixes of each song by bouncing-to-disk in one tenth of the time it would take you to do realtime mixes in PTLE.

Of course you can always render DP files for export to PTLE, but why bother? That would be like buying a Hummer, but then never driving it, opting for your broken down Hyundai instead.

(Thank you very much. Threadjack over.)

tsvisser · 2nd July 2008, 09:44 AM

I'd highly recommend considering something like the Alesis hardware recorders too. If you must use a software solution for whatever reason, take a look at Metric Halo's Record Panel
2882 Expanded
(click on "Record Panel" on the right)
I can see where this would be attractive, ability to do advanced routing, add DSP or effects for live reinforcement... if those assets don't already exist on the premises.

Boom Recorder is another popular dedicated software recorder popular in the video industry and is compatible with lots of different hardware interfaces.
VOSGAMES

ghellquist · 2nd July 2008, 01:22 PM

I run Samplitude on a laptop. Keeping the laptop dedicated to only recording, never internet, fresh partition for sound. I´ve done a few mistakes over the years, but basically the system has not let me down.

For rock solid I recommend RME Digiface. It is a two-piece system, a dedicated card and a breakout box. It has the additional advantage that you can make listening mixes without loading down the computer.

And, frankly, once you have tried Samplitude for editing recordings, chances are that you will not want to run ProTools LE anymore. I should know, went down that path and am not going back.

Gunnar

Roland · 2nd July 2008, 01:37 PM

Although you can record 24 tracks reliably on a laptop, you will improve reliability by going to a dedicated system with a seperate hardrive for audio. Pretty much most software on a good system will be good for 24 tracks at once, as previously mentioned Samplitude, other offerings from Cubase, Logic, Nuendo etc. For ultimate computer based reliability you need to look at the more dedicated systems such as Protools HD, Pyramix, or standalone systems such as the Alesis, IZ radar, Tascam.

Regards

Roland

Kalara · 2nd July 2008, 04:17 PM

Even though my primary remote rig is a PT HD system, I have to agree with Roland. For your scenario I would roll with a stand alone hard disk recorder, they're simply more reliable. I own a pair of Mackie MDR's, which not only run as a redundant to my primary rig, but often on their own for smaller recordings. They always run great. I then almost always transfer those files into PT for mixing. The Mackie is not a current product but I;ve heard great things about the Alesis. I'm sure, like the Mackie, you can drop the drives into a caddy and then firewire them into a PT LE session.

My two cents

Mark

GooberNumber9 · 2nd July 2008, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Alesis HD24 Hard disk recorder. The problem would be bouncing 24 tracks back into LE, which will only let you use 18 inputs.

+1 the HD24. I've used it live for years and it's solid as a rock and easy to use.
Transfer to PTLE is dead simple: Just get the Alesis Fireport, copy the audio files, make a new session, and import audio. Choose new tracks at session start. I do this all the time. I'll do it again tomorrow.

John Willett · 2nd July 2008, 09:22 PM

The most reliable live recording DAW is SADiE - no contest.

nobtwiddler · 2nd July 2008, 09:50 PM

Radar V... 24 tracks
After the live gig, just put in a DVD, burn the Wave files and your ready to roll, on any oher DAW

Roland · 2nd July 2008, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Willett

The most reliable live recording DAW is SADiE - no contest.

Merging Pyramix would without doubt disagree with you as would I.

Regards

Roland

Drumminkiger · 2nd July 2008, 10:41 PM

I am a fan of deadicated hard disc recorders, and have worked with an alesis HD 24 on a few occasions and though i like it as a recorder, its file transfer system is definately lame (but this doesnt mean i probally wont invest in one when i can afford it). I guess the reason why I am looking more for a DAW that i can run this on is because at the moment I am broke, but have access to a few different DAW's that i can "borrow", and i have a firewire interface with up to 32 tracks of lighpipe input on it and i can get 24 channels of lightpipe/preamps. the interface is an M-audio Profire Lightbridge. I know this setup isnt totally ideal, but i assume that if i can do 16 tracks on a regular basis with good stability, that 24 probally isnt pushing my luck to far. Basicly I just need to get this going for when the track count is too high for my pro tools rig, and untill i can afford to get that HD recorder.

huub · 2nd July 2008, 10:51 PM

Pyramix (with dedicated hardware) works perfectly for us and most of the big remote guys in the u.k. (tim summerhayes, will shapland)..
Reaper has thusfar also proven to be reliable.. and cheap! reaper with RME seems like the best affordable solution to me..

huub

huub · 2nd July 2008, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nobtwiddler

Radar V... 24 tracks
After the live gig, just put in a DVD, burn the Wave files and your ready to roll, on any oher DAW

Well.. burn 8 dvd's.... 2 hour concert is about 1 gig per track :)

nine99nine · 3rd July 2008, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by huub

Well.. burn 8 dvd's.... 2 hour concert is about 1 gig per track :)

You could also FTP to your Radar and transfer that way. Or just mix it analogue!

+1 for Radar24 V

Drumminkiger · 3rd July 2008, 03:01 AM

You guys keep mentioning things that arent DAWs at all, but deadicated hardware solutions. What about Cubase or Nuendo? I have access to a copy of either one. Would they be sutible for that kind of track count and longer concert tracking?

Roland · 3rd July 2008, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumminkiger

You guys keep mentioning things that arent DAWs at all, but deadicated hardware solutions. What about Cubase or Nuendo? I have access to a copy of either one. Would they be sutible for that kind of track count and longer concert tracking?

I think if you read my post above I did say that, 24 tracks with a decent DAW of any variety should be reliable. All I did say is that I personally wouldn't want to trust a long form recording over this many tracks to a laptop.

Things like Radar have a PC motherboard in them anyway!

Regards

Roland

MATTI · 3rd July 2008, 11:59 AM

Reaper is getting mature and is light on the computer, I would mix
with my Nuendo though.

Matti

BlueSprocket · 3rd July 2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumminkiger

You guys keep mentioning things that arent DAWs at all, but deadicated hardware solutions. What about Cubase or Nuendo? I have access to a copy of either one. Would they be sutible for that kind of track count and longer concert tracking?

Cubase or Nuendo on a dedicated machine with an HD24 as a backup (assuming this is for a commercial client) is a killer combination. The steinberg apps are very stable and you likely wont need the backup.

But if you do have to hit the backup for some reason, the HD24XRs sound very nice.

If this is to just record your own band live, or a friends, and are willing to risk any chance of a drop, then you can forgo the backup.

Mick@itc · 4th July 2008, 06:48 AM

Hi all

Just wanted to clarify...DAW - for me is the combination of the recording hardware and software. Personally I run HD24XR but also have a DAW in the studio SONAR/SoundForge and a custom built desktop.
However I am very interested in what people think DAW hardware wise. Does everyone run laptops or does anyone run a racked PC as a live recording DAW???

Regards
Mick

Sound Sorcerer · 4th July 2008, 12:29 PM

According to this article the "Academy Awards 2008" were recorded using Nuendo...

"AMD Dual Opteron PCs running Nuendo via Apogee Converters"

Factory101 · 4th July 2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sound Sorcerer

According to this article the "Academy Awards 2008" were recorded using Nuendo...

"AMD Dual Opteron PCs running Nuendo via Apogee Converters"

The Grand Ole Opry use Nuendo too - there's an interesting article (SoundonSound) here: The Grand Ole Opry

**Remoteness** · 4th July 2008, 01:07 PM

Hewitt has been using Nuendo for a longtime with great results.

George Gilliam · 4th July 2008, 10:26 PM

For several years, I have had excellent reliability on a PC (XP) recording on Samplitude and Pyramix Native (versions 5.1 and 6.0). I've never had a failure while recording classical music concerts.

noamraz · 4th July 2008, 11:54 PM

I am using the Reaper for more than one year now after i've been introduced to that cute multi-tracker by a fellow slut - And from that point and on the Reaper has been working as a Backup recorder (24 Tracks/44.1Khz/24Bit) for more than 10 shows, did not hicked-up even once so far (Knock-Knock).

I have not tried to use it's editing capabilities so far as i'm trying to adjust to Protools nowdays, but as far as recording - It's a bless.

Have a great day, Noam.

subspace · 5th July 2008, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumminkiger

I am a fan of deadicated hard disc recorders, and have worked with an alesis HD 24 on a few occasions and though i like it as a recorder, its file transfer system is definately lame (but this doesnt mean i probally wont invest in one when i can afford it). I guess the reason why I am looking more for a DAW that i can run this on is because at the moment I am broke, but have access to a few different DAW's that i can "borrow", and i have a firewire interface with up to 32 tracks of lighpipe input on it and i can get 24 channels of lightpipe/preamps. the interface is an M-audio Profire Lightbridge. I know this setup isnt totally ideal, but i assume that if i can do 16 tracks on a regular basis with good stability, that 24 probally isnt pushing my luck to far. Basicly I just need to get this going for when the track count is too high for my pro tools rig, and untill i can afford to get that HD recorder.

I use a Lightbridge with M-powered 7.3.1cs1 on a Mac for 32 track live recording. Won't work if you're on PC though... I run a SDR 24/96 as back-up.

matt2525 · 5th July 2008, 01:03 AM

I have been using Cubase for live recordings since SX 1, and currently use Cubase 4 on PC with 26 tracks at 24bit 44.1khz - so far no problems with gigs up to 2 hours long, can even save whilst recording (I've tested this on another system by deliberately powering off just after a save point, and the files are fully intact up til final save), - however I'm always slightly paranoid until I get to the end of the gig and backup.

Definitely a hardware box like the Alesis or Mackie machines would be an excellent backup unit run in tandem (which I will invest in when funds allow for my sanity!!), but for me at the moment Cubase runs perfectly stable, and allows me easy access to all my usual DAW and computer functions on site if required

MATTI · 5th July 2008, 04:58 AM

As we can see all the major programs + Reapper are easyly stabile enough -and over- for professional work

Matti

Drumminkiger · 6th July 2008, 08:47 PM

Pro tools M powered supports 32 tracks? I asked an engineering buddy of mine who has that same setup (on a mac) about that and he said it limited him to 18. Why wouldnt it work on a PC?

BlueSprocket · 7th July 2008, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumminkiger

Pro tools M powered supports 32 tracks? I asked an engineering buddy of mine who has that same setup (on a mac) about that and he said it limited him to 18. Why wouldnt it work on a PC?

Pro Tools M-Powered will allow you to record and mix a total of 32 Tracks. However yes, you are right, you are lmited to 18 simultaneous ins and outs. So for a live recorder, Pro Tools M-Powered/LE would only be functional as at most an 18 Track recorder.

Live multitrack was not what Digi had in mind when they began the LE movement. But if you don't need more than 18 channels @ more than 48K then you're fine.

Drumminkiger · 7th July 2008, 04:46 AM

Okay, cool, thats what i thought was the case. It was pretty much the entire reason i was leaving my comfort zone and looking for different audio software, i love to edit and mix in pro tools, but i can imagine if we are always limited to 18 ins and outs its going to slip as the industry standard.

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2nd July 2008, 07:11 AM	#1
Drumminkiger Gear nut Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 104	Most Reliable Live Recording DAW? So lately I have been doing a lot of live recording around town with my protools le rig and there have been more and more occasions where i am limited by the number of tracks that i can record. I have been thinking about getting a lightpipe interface that can record up to 32 tracks such as the offerings from presonus and maudio so i then had to think, what is the best DAW to pair up with an interface like that? I would like to be able to record up to 24 tracks for at least an hour or two at a time so thats where the reliability thing comes into play. I like mixing in pro tools, so i plan on exporting the tracks after tracking. Any ideas out there? __________________ -Kiger http://www.myspace.com/drumminkiger

2nd July 2008, 08:42 AM	#2
uncle duncan Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,932	Alesis HD24 Hard disk recorder. The problem would be bouncing 24 tracks back into LE, which will only let you use 18 inputs. You could pick up a used Motu 2408 interface, which has three banks of adat lightpipe = 24 channels. But again, since you can't use all 24 channels into PTLE, it looks like PTLE would be the weak link in your chain. So, what's more important to you, mixing in PTLE with no ADC, or getting 24 tracks in one pass into your DAW? (a DAW that would have ADC, since PTLE is the only one that doesn't.) Motu Digital performer is quite handy with audio editing. The only thing it doesn't have is Beat Detective/Elastic Audio (at least it doesn't have polyphonic elastic audio - it's had graphic time stretch/shrink for years.) But if you normally don't have to fix things with Elastic Audio, you could just port a project over to PTLE in the rare case when you did need it. What DP does have is a graphic pitch correction window, something you'd have to pay extra for in PTLE. I use DP's pitch correction window all the time for fixing vocals and such. I actually prefer it to Autotune, since it does not alter the sound the way Autotune does. What I like about the HD24/motu solution is the fact that while you're transferring 24 tracks into DP, you can be putting in your markers and getting your mix set up, so it's not a totally wasted hour making the transfer in realtime. Then, you can do rough mixes of each song by bouncing-to-disk in one tenth of the time it would take you to do realtime mixes in PTLE. Of course you can always render DP files for export to PTLE, but why bother? That would be like buying a Hummer, but then never driving it, opting for your broken down Hyundai instead. (Thank you very much. Threadjack over.) __________________ "You're either with a native DAW, or you're with the terrorists." G.W. Busch Lite

2nd July 2008, 04:17 PM	#6
Kalara Gear Head Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 38	Stand alone recorders Even though my primary remote rig is a PT HD system, I have to agree with Roland. For your scenario I would roll with a stand alone hard disk recorder, they're simply more reliable. I own a pair of Mackie MDR's, which not only run as a redundant to my primary rig, but often on their own for smaller recordings. They always run great. I then almost always transfer those files into PT for mixing. The Mackie is not a current product but I;ve heard great things about the Alesis. I'm sure, like the Mackie, you can drop the drives into a caddy and then firewire them into a PT LE session. My two cents Mark __________________ Mark Miller Luminant Audio http://www.luminantaudio.com

2nd July 2008, 09:22 PM	#8
John Willett Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Oxfordshire, UK Posts: 905	The most reliable live recording DAW is SADiE - no contest. __________________ John President - Fédération Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons (and lots more - please look at my Profile)

2nd July 2008, 09:44 AM	#3
tsvisser Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NYC and HI Posts: 648	I'd highly recommend considering something like the Alesis hardware recorders too. If you must use a software solution for whatever reason, take a look at Metric Halo's Record Panel 2882 Expanded (click on "Record Panel" on the right) I can see where this would be attractive, ability to do advanced routing, add DSP or effects for live reinforcement... if those assets don't already exist on the premises. Boom Recorder is another popular dedicated software recorder popular in the video industry and is compatible with lots of different hardware interfaces. VOSGAMES

2nd July 2008, 01:22 PM	#4
ghellquist Gear maniac Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 229	I run Samplitude on a laptop. Keeping the laptop dedicated to only recording, never internet, fresh partition for sound. I´ve done a few mistakes over the years, but basically the system has not let me down. For rock solid I recommend RME Digiface. It is a two-piece system, a dedicated card and a breakout box. It has the additional advantage that you can make listening mixes without loading down the computer. And, frankly, once you have tried Samplitude for editing recordings, chances are that you will not want to run ProTools LE anymore. I should know, went down that path and am not going back. Gunnar

2nd July 2008, 01:37 PM	#5
Roland Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: St Leonards on Sea, England Posts: 1,340	Although you can record 24 tracks reliably on a laptop, you will improve reliability by going to a dedicated system with a seperate hardrive for audio. Pretty much most software on a good system will be good for 24 tracks at once, as previously mentioned Samplitude, other offerings from Cubase, Logic, Nuendo etc. For ultimate computer based reliability you need to look at the more dedicated systems such as Protools HD, Pyramix, or standalone systems such as the Alesis, IZ radar, Tascam. Regards Roland

2nd July 2008, 09:50 PM	#9
nobtwiddler Lives for gear Join Date: May 2005 Location: Millbrook, NY Posts: 998	Nothing better or easier the Radar V Radar V... 24 tracks After the live gig, just put in a DVD, burn the Wave files and your ready to roll, on any oher DAW __________________ Cheers Paul www.millbrooksoundstudios.com

2nd July 2008, 10:41 PM	#11
Drumminkiger Gear nut Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 104	I am a fan of deadicated hard disc recorders, and have worked with an alesis HD 24 on a few occasions and though i like it as a recorder, its file transfer system is definately lame (but this doesnt mean i probally wont invest in one when i can afford it). I guess the reason why I am looking more for a DAW that i can run this on is because at the moment I am broke, but have access to a few different DAW's that i can "borrow", and i have a firewire interface with up to 32 tracks of lighpipe input on it and i can get 24 channels of lightpipe/preamps. the interface is an M-audio Profire Lightbridge. I know this setup isnt totally ideal, but i assume that if i can do 16 tracks on a regular basis with good stability, that 24 probally isnt pushing my luck to far. Basicly I just need to get this going for when the track count is too high for my pro tools rig, and untill i can afford to get that HD recorder. __________________ -Kiger http://www.myspace.com/drumminkiger

2nd July 2008, 10:51 PM	#12
huub Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: amsterdam Posts: 376	Pyramix (with dedicated hardware) works perfectly for us and most of the big remote guys in the u.k. (tim summerhayes, will shapland).. Reaper has thusfar also proven to be reliable.. and cheap! reaper with RME seems like the best affordable solution to me.. huub

3rd July 2008, 03:01 AM	#15
Drumminkiger Gear nut Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 104	You guys keep mentioning things that arent DAWs at all, but deadicated hardware solutions. What about Cubase or Nuendo? I have access to a copy of either one. Would they be sutible for that kind of track count and longer concert tracking? __________________ -Kiger http://www.myspace.com/drumminkiger

3rd July 2008, 11:59 AM	#17
MATTI Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 876	Reaper is getting mature and is light on the computer, I would mix with my Nuendo though. Matti

4th July 2008, 06:48 AM	#19
Mick@itc Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Mornington Peninsula - Melbourne Australia Posts: 185	DAW - DIgital Audio Workstation Hi all Just wanted to clarify...DAW - for me is the combination of the recording hardware and software. Personally I run HD24XR but also have a DAW in the studio SONAR/SoundForge and a custom built desktop. However I am very interested in what people think DAW hardware wise. Does everyone run laptops or does anyone run a racked PC as a live recording DAW??? Regards Mick __________________ Mick

4th July 2008, 12:29 PM	#20
Sound Sorcerer Gear nut Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Lawrence, Kansas Posts: 102	According to this article the "Academy Awards 2008" were recorded using Nuendo... "AMD Dual Opteron PCs running Nuendo via Apogee Converters" Attached Thumbnails __________________ Sergio Sanmiguel www.soundsorcerer.net

4th July 2008, 01:07 PM	#22
Remoteness Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 4,808	Hewitt has been using Nuendo for a longtime with great results. __________________ Steve Remote AuraSonicLtd.com the home of ASL Mobile & Location Production Remoteness on the Linkedin Network Remoteness on Myspace

4th July 2008, 10:26 PM	#23
George Gilliam Gear interested Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Dallas TX USA Posts: 6	For several years, I have had excellent reliability on a PC (XP) recording on Samplitude and Pyramix Native (versions 5.1 and 6.0). I've never had a failure while recording classical music concerts.

4th July 2008, 11:54 PM	#24
noamraz Gear nut Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Israel Posts: 87	Reaper was my saviour I am using the Reaper for more than one year now after i've been introduced to that cute multi-tracker by a fellow slut - And from that point and on the Reaper has been working as a Backup recorder (24 Tracks/44.1Khz/24Bit) for more than 10 shows, did not hicked-up even once so far (Knock-Knock). I have not tried to use it's editing capabilities so far as i'm trying to adjust to Protools nowdays, but as far as recording - It's a bless. Have a great day, Noam.

5th July 2008, 01:03 AM	#26
matt2525 Gear Head Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Scotland Posts: 37	I have been using Cubase for live recordings since SX 1, and currently use Cubase 4 on PC with 26 tracks at 24bit 44.1khz - so far no problems with gigs up to 2 hours long, can even save whilst recording (I've tested this on another system by deliberately powering off just after a save point, and the files are fully intact up til final save), - however I'm always slightly paranoid until I get to the end of the gig and backup. Definitely a hardware box like the Alesis or Mackie machines would be an excellent backup unit run in tandem (which I will invest in when funds allow for my sanity!!), but for me at the moment Cubase runs perfectly stable, and allows me easy access to all my usual DAW and computer functions on site if required

5th July 2008, 04:58 AM	#27
MATTI Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 876	As we can see all the major programs + Reapper are easyly stabile enough -and over- for professional work Matti

6th July 2008, 08:47 PM	#28
Drumminkiger Gear nut Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 104	Pro tools M powered supports 32 tracks? I asked an engineering buddy of mine who has that same setup (on a mac) about that and he said it limited him to 18. Why wouldnt it work on a PC? __________________ -Kiger http://www.myspace.com/drumminkiger

7th July 2008, 04:46 AM	#30
Drumminkiger Gear nut Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 104	Okay, cool, thats what i thought was the case. It was pretty much the entire reason i was leaving my comfort zone and looking for different audio software, i love to edit and mix in pro tools, but i can imagine if we are always limited to 18 ins and outs its going to slip as the industry standard. __________________ -Kiger http://www.myspace.com/drumminkiger