Drum micing for live work -limited inputs

[feckinedgit]

Hi

Simple question I know, but I have basically ony 4 xlr inputs on the mixer to play with for live drums, so, my question is what should I mic up?

Should I use an overhead for the cymbals and hats, another mid positioned for the toms, a kick and snare mic or what would the panel suggest?

I cant afford to change the mixer and we are talking micing for small venues like bars, so the drums are plenty loud - its really just to give that added stereo sound that a nice PA mix can give.

Best mic postioning also for a vintage Marshall cab ? - I want good sounding mids with not too much fiz, so more towards the centre of the speaker???
Dont ask what gear I`m using as its cheap....really cheap, but has shown itself so far to be perfectly servicable.

[1monkey1]

try two diagonals across the kit with a line across the snare.
i use a ribbon in the back and a condenser in the front for the contrast.
then i put a mic on the floor between the kick and the snare.
you can angle that mic to vary the kick/snare ratio.
i use a dynamic there.

just my way to hit when i'm strapped for inputs.

[Konketsu]

Glyn John's technique? If you don't know it, do a search on the board; there's loads of info/how-to's on it.

[Michaelrophone]

Four mics on drums? Easy!

1. Kick
2. Snare
3 & 4. Overheads L & R

Whenever I mic up a whole kit it seems like those are the only 4 mics that end up in the mix anyways.

Good luck,
-Michael

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Michaelrophone

Four mics on drums? Easy!

1. Kick
2. Snare
3 & 4. Overheads L & R

Whenever I mic up a whole kit it seems like those are the only 4 mics that end up in the mix anyways.

Good luck,
-Michael

no no no no no...the reality is in small bars the only thing that MAYBE needs a mic is the Kick drum. Also getting a stereo image in these situations isn't really going to matter or be noticed...really. But if you must use 4 mics, they most definitely would be Kic ,Snare, Rack Tom, Floor Tom. The last thing you need in a small bar is more cymbals (from overheads) in the PA. No offense, you guys just don't know.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by 1monkey1

try two diagonals across the kit with a line across the snare.
i use a ribbon in the back and a condenser in the front for the contrast.
then i put a mic on the floor between the kick and the snare.
you can angle that mic to vary the kick/snare ratio.
i use a dynamic there.

just my way to hit when i'm strapped for inputs.

Did you read the post? Live Drums...hello?

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Konketsu

Glyn John's technique? If you don't know it, do a search on the board; there's loads of info/how-to's on it.

That's a recording technique not a LIVE technique....you guys should really read the post before spouting...c'mon the guy wants advice...if you don't know...don't pretend.

[Michaelrophone]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

no no no no no...the reality is in small bars the only thing that MAYBE needs a mic is the Kick drum. Also getting a stereo image in these situations isn't really going to matter or be noticed...really. But if you must use 4 mics, they most definitely would be Kic ,Snare, Rack Tom, Floor Tom. The last thing you need in a small bar is more cymbals (from overheads) in the PA. No offense, you guys just don't know.

No, you're right. I was just thinking about how to get a stereo image like he wanted. I suppose he could get a descent one with micing the toms and being a little more conservative about the panning as one would with overheads.

Besides, everyone has a different perception of what constitutes a "small room" and I've ended up in a few where the stage was set back just far enough to where the cymbals disappeared.

Really, you're right on about the only one you NEED is the kick, but it is nice to be able to bring the snare up in the mix when you end up with one of those prick guitarists that keeps cranking his amp up in between each song. Also, back when I used to gig (guitar), I liked to have the snare (along with a little kick depending on how much stage noise was going on) shooting back at me through my monitor to help me lock in with the drummer.

[Konketsu]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

That's a recording technique not a LIVE technique....you guys should really read the post before spouting...c'mon the guy wants advice...if you don't know...don't pretend.

Dude was looking for options for 4 mics, and I gave it to him, and "recording technique" vs. "live technique" is pretty piss poor because it's all simply mic placement anyways. Are you gonna say that a 57 on the grill is a "recording technique" too and thus shouldn't be used in a live setting? Please.

Whether or not it will work is entirely dependent on the venue and the equipment on hand. I've used the Glyn Johns technique live and it worked fine with a pair of C1000's, a 57 and a D112. It's up to the user to determine if it is appropriate for the venue, and, as I've said, I've simply given dude another option. It's up to him to determine if it will work in the venue that he's at.

Don't be a d_ou_che. fuuck

[Patrick5150]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

in small bars the only thing that MAYBE needs a mic is the Kick drum....really. But if you must use 4 mics, they most definitely would be Kic ,Snare, Rack Tom, Floor Tom. The last thing you need in a small bar is more cymbals (from overheads) in the PA.

thumbsup

I play out, mostly small venues; cymbals is the last thing I want to hear more of when I'm in the audience, they seem to me to be plenty loud all by themselves

[benversluis]

I don't see why a Glyn Johns wouldn't work in a live setting. I mean, you definitely wouldn't be using boutique-y microphones on a live gig as you would on a recording gig.

But, ultimately, if the drums sound okay, who cares what technique was used to get from A to B?

[Dax Productions]

I would say kick-snare-rack toms-floor toms.

In a small room, you don't really need overheads. When I've mixed in a small club this is what I've always done (add a hi-hat depending on the style of music, or how hard the drummer hits). You may find yourself not even adding the snare into the mix at all depending on how packed the room is. Get a good kick sound going, then bring the other mics in to get relative levels for those drums compared to the kick.

[rackdude]

Same. Kick, snare, rack toms, floor tom.

If you need more cymbals, its about placement. I'd just point the snare mic higher or raise it a bit *whatever sounds good really* till it picks up more cymbals, and do the same with rack tom *if it sounds good*. Just judge the kit yourself. If it sounds good, great. That's just a place to start.

[GooberNumber9]

Assuming you are micing a rock band or otherwise loud band with electric guitars and a loud dummer:
A) Go mono. Not many venues will give you a good stereo image no matter how you set up the stacks anyway.
B) +1 on kick, snare, tom, tom. You might not get the toms out front really well, but it's worth a shot. If you need more channels for something else, ditch the tom mics.
C) For the Marshall (I think this answers the loudness question), choose the cone farthest from the drums and the floor (upper right or upper left). I like to point a 57 straight in, about halfway between the dustcap and the surround. If you have time, angle towards or away from the dustcap to taste - I never have time.

I'm not sure who of you out there are have good results with Glyn Johns miking in a live setting, but you must be working with really large venues and/or really interesting bands (jazz, folk, something like that?). My biggest drum sound problem in live rock bands in small rooms is having too much cymbals (in the vocals mics and pretty much everything else).

[Konketsu]

Originally Posted by GooberNumber9

I'm not sure who of you out there are have good results with Glyn Johns miking in a live setting, but you must be working with really large venues and/or really interesting bands (jazz, folk, something like that?). My biggest drum sound problem in live rock bands in small rooms is having too much cymbals (in the vocals mics and pretty much everything else).

Yep, bang on with the folk. I wouldn't do Glyn Johns on a rock show.

thumbsup

[Eric Greedy]

one on the kick. one on the snare. one above the rack toms. one above the floor toms. you can pull the snare and tom mics off a littler from what you are used to so they puyll in a little more of the cymbals & hat,

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Konketsu

Dude was looking for options for 4 mics, and I gave it to him, and "recording technique" vs. "live technique" is pretty piss poor because it's all simply mic placement anyways. Are you gonna say that a 57 on the grill is a "recording technique" too and thus shouldn't be used in a live setting? Please.

Whether or not it will work is entirely dependent on the venue and the equipment on hand. I've used the Glyn Johns technique live and it worked fine with a pair of C1000's, a 57 and a D112. It's up to the user to determine if it is appropriate for the venue, and, as I've said, I've simply given dude another option. It's up to him to determine if it will work in the venue that he's at.

Don't be a d_ou_che. fuuck

Op was talking about loud drums in a small room. Do yourself a favour and don't ever suggest using the "Glynn Johns" technique again. It's a drum "recording" technique....and it's not something you have experience with. You are obviously talking out your ass. Like I said if you don't know. Don't talk. That D_OU_CH_E enough for ya?

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by GooberNumber9

Assuming you are micing a rock band or otherwise loud band with electric guitars and a loud dummer:
A) Go mono. Not many venues will give you a good stereo image no matter how you set up the stacks anyway.
B) +1 on kick, snare, tom, tom. You might not get the toms out front really well, but it's worth a shot. If you need more channels for something else, ditch the tom mics.
C) For the Marshall (I think this answers the loudness question), choose the cone farthest from the drums and the floor (upper right or upper left). I like to point a 57 straight in, about halfway between the dustcap and the surround. If you have time, angle towards or away from the dustcap to taste - I never have time.

I'm not sure who of you out there are have good results with Glyn Johns miking in a live setting, but you must be working with really large venues and/or really interesting bands (jazz, folk, something like that?). My biggest drum sound problem in live rock bands in small rooms is having too much cymbals (in the vocals mics and pretty much everything else).

This man obviously has some real experience.

[Konketsu]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

Op was talking about loud drums in a small room. Do yourself a favour and don't ever suggest using the "Glynn Johns" technique again. It's a drum "recording" technique....and it's not something you have experience with. You are obviously talking out your ass. Like I said if you don't know. Don't talk. That D_OU_CH_E enough for ya?

You have no idea what my body of experience is, and you are obviously an angry has-been dickbag who has nothing better to do than point out minor technicalities, ie: "recording technique" vs. "live technique" when it really comes down to whether or not the signal from the mic is decent. THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS, EITHER LIVE OR IN THE STUDIO, END OF STORY. You should know that if you actually have the experience you seem to suggest. Do yourself a favour and STFU so you don't look like an arrogant, opinionated jackhole.

I'm not going to get dragged into some dumbass internet argument with some jerkoff who gets his panties in a bunch over what goddamn mic setup to use. I've contributed my suggestion to the OP and he can use it or not as he sees fit. I found the GJ technique was quick to set up and the end result was fine, angry cockmongling forum trolls notwithstanding.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Konketsu

You have no idea what my body of experience is, and you are obviously an angry has-been dickbag who has nothing better to do than point out minor technicalities, ie: "recording technique" vs. "live technique" when it really comes down to whether or not the signal from the mic is decent. THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS, EITHER LIVE OR IN THE STUDIO, END OF STORY. You should know that if you actually have the experience you seem to suggest. Do yourself a favour and STFU so you don't look like an arrogant, opinionated jackhole.

I'm not going to get dragged into some dumbass internet argument with some jerkoff who gets his panties in a bunch over what goddamn mic setup to use. I've contributed my suggestion to the OP and he can use it or not as he sees fit. I found the GJ technique was quick to set up and the end result was fine, angry cockmongling forum trolls notwithstanding.

what tour was it on that you tried your precious recording technique?....or what club/arena did that work in?...really tell us. I mean surely from the sounds of this post your experience is vast and you've toured North America many times, playing the smallest clubs to the largest festivals...the wait is killing me...please grace us some more with your wisdom.

Nick

[PatBlair]

The answer sort of depends on what you mean by "small," and also how loud the PA, room, and stage volume are. My experiences, in clubs in the 100-400 person range, is that, at comfortable listening volume, overheads are generally not needed (at least as much as the other mics). In order of importance, kick, snare, floor tom, rack tom(s).
If you're losing the cymbals in the mix, you could try using two overheads, but I would position them very low, and back a bit (towards the drummer). Low means less bleed from the inevitably too-loud guitar amps, back gives better pickup on the toms. My only concern with the Glyn Johns/Recorderman methods would be that, unless the stage is HUGE, you'll probably get way more room/stage/monitor bleed than you want, and not nearly enough drums (see aforementioned overly loud guitar amps).
In situations where channels are tight (minimum: every other night), try a mono overhead, again positioned low and back. Heck, try everything. That's really the only way to figure out what works. But these are the points that I would start from.
Most importantly (and yet to be mentioned), when working small rooms, make sure your gear checklist includes earplugs.

[feckinedgit]

Crikey!

I didnt mean to start a huge argument.
Ok, the drum set up is....

2 floor toms - 14 and 16 inch
2 rack toms
snare
single bass drum
3 cymbals [sometimes 4 if he uses the china]
high hats


Now...next stupid question.

When we record , I clamp a dynamic mic to each tom, snare etc, use two overheads and a kick.

If I have 4 inputs only...presuming as people have stated that the cymbals and high hat will be loud enough [they will be , he`s a metal drummer]

1 mic for kick
1 for snare

where can I position the remaining two mics so that I can pick up both rack toms and both floor toms?
Eqidistant between the drums you wish to pick up?

[Remoteness]

feckinedgit,

It wasn't your fault, nickynicknick cannot help himself.

Believe it or not, this is how he treats everyone...

Tick-tock-tick-tock -- his time on this forum is running out...

If my patients runs out so will he. He may need to be quieted for awhile.

I trust (if he's a genuine professional) he will see the light before he sees the door.

[Remoteness]

A mic over the drummers right shoulder aimed at the center of the kit has worked very well for me.
The bottom line -- make your final decision (on where the mic should be placed) once you have seen the kit in person.

[Jim vanBergen]

>>I cant afford to change the mixer and we are talking micing for small venues like bars, so the drums are plenty loud - its really just to give that added stereo sound that a nice PA mix can give.>>

I would normally agree with the suggestion you start with Kick & Mono OH about 1&1/2 sticks over the snare, then add a snare mic IF you need it- but if what you want is a wide stereo image, then I'd do kick with wide OHs and consider adding a snare ONLY if you need it. K/OH or K/S/OH should be enough to capture most drum kits quite well. Of course, there are thousands of exceptions due to player, kit, club acoustics, band, etc. After listening to the player and understanding their playing and approach, I usually mic up everything and only use whats needed.

If K/S/OH's yields you too much cymbals , then miking each of the toms & floors with identical mics and Y'ing them together works well in a pinch- but you might be missing the plates entirely if you do
1-Kick
2-Snare (top or bottom, which ever sounds better or matching the player)
3-Tom 1&2 y'd together
4-Floor 3&4 y'd together

If you give up the stereo image for more discrete sounds, you could y together L&R condenser OH mics and put a single dynamic between the toms, another between the floor toms, and Y the toms together to try and eek a touch more attack and resonance from the toms
1-Kick
2-Snare
3-Toms (2 mics y'd, each between a pair of toms_
4-OHs-L/R y'd

But Keeping It Simple is the rule, and can result in excellent results.

For recording, I love Steve Remote's "over the shoulder" or "drummer's knee" concept. Great stuff!

JvB

[feckinedgit]

excellent advice.

They are playing a local mini-festival with about 7 other bands.
Whilst we arent using our kit, it seems limited inputs are also going to be an issue then, so I will be putting some of the excellent advice herin to good use.

thanks.

[JimmyTurbo]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

Op was talking about loud drums in a small room. Do yourself a favour and don't ever suggest using the "Glynn Johns" technique again. It's a drum "recording" technique....and it's not something you have experience with. You are obviously talking out your ass. Like I said if you don't know. Don't talk. That D_OU_CH_E enough for ya?

Have YOU ever tried this technique live?
Because I have and it sounded really good.
Works better with a jazz band than with a rock band, but it doesn't suck for rock.

It may be one of these things where it kinda 'looks' or 'feels' wrong, but sound right.
Like Steve Remote's "one omni above the drummer's knee" thing.
Tried that in the studio and it was cool.
Tried it live with another band and it was awesome as a "mono-drumbreak-thing".

Just saying...

Oh and it really depends on what the music is.
If it's rock I too would probably go for the kick-snare-toms.
But maybe not...
Jim vanBergen's advice is really good BTW!

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by JimmyTurbo

Jim vanBergen's advice is really good BTW!

Thanks!

[talbe1019]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

>>I cant afford to change the mixer and we are talking micing for small venues like bars, so the drums are plenty loud - its really just to give that added stereo sound that a nice PA mix can give.>>

I would normally agree with the suggestion you start with Kick & Mono OH about 1&1/2 sticks over the snare, then add a snare mic IF you need it- but if what you want is a wide stereo image, then I'd do kick with wide OHs and consider adding a snare ONLY if you need it. K/OH or K/S/OH should be enough to capture most drum kits quite well. Of course, there are thousands of exceptions due to player, kit, club acoustics, band, etc. After listening to the player and understanding their playing and approach, I usually mic up everything and only use whats needed.

If K/S/OH's yields you too much cymbals , then miking each of the toms & floors with identical mics and Y'ing them together works well in a pinch- but you might be missing the plates entirely if you do
1-Kick
2-Snare (top or bottom, which ever sounds better or matching the player)
3-Tom 1&2 y'd together
4-Floor 3&4 y'd together

If you give up the stereo image for more discrete sounds, you could y together L&R condenser OH mics and put a single dynamic between the toms, another between the floor toms, and Y the toms together to try and eek a touch more attack and resonance from the toms
1-Kick
2-Snare
3-Toms (2 mics y'd, each between a pair of toms_
4-OHs-L/R y'd

But Keeping It Simple is the rule, and can result in excellent results.

For recording, I love Steve Remote's "over the shoulder" or "drummer's knee" concept. Great stuff!

JvB

Hey Jim...Quick question...

When you "Y" the toms together do you use an inline phase reversal on one of the toms? I was recording a show and that is what their FOH guy insisted on. When I mixed some of it the toms sounded pretty good. Any input?

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by talbe1019

Hey Jim...Quick question...

When you "Y" the toms together do you use an inline phase reversal on one of the toms? I was recording a show and that is what their FOH guy insisted on. When I mixed some of it the toms sounded pretty good. Any input?

That depends. Certainly not as a rule: I'd listen to it first, and the best way to do this is to have Whirlwind Q box or Shure FP22 headphone amp to be able to listen to each mic separately, then Y'd together, as you position them. If I have to Y two rack toms together, I have sometimes pointed the mics slightly away from each other; whats really important to me is having the transducers in the same horizontal plane as all the other mics. Putting one tom out of phase with the OHs or kick might result in problems, so you have to listen to everything by itself first, then again together, adding elements one by one.

Lastly, I was doing a festival with one drummer whose individually miked toms sounded great out of phase with one another, and had close-miked OH splash, ride and crash cymbals. But the headline act's drummer, who was letting the opener use the kit- hit both the rack and floor together- and the phase-reversed channel sucked all the low end out of the mix. I popped the phase reverse back out on the rack tom, and the impact of the simultanous double-tom hit suddenly kicked. So...gotta listen carefully, and try it both ways. I'd always rather move the mic, personally. But do what works!

Hope this answers your question, bro.