Microphone setup for drama/theater

[audiothings]

Don't think there is a better forum within gearslutz to post this.

i am working with a new concert hall and we are preparing for a theater festival scheduled in early august.

please find attached a representation of the stage. i have no experience doing this, but by intuition (?) and a little research, i have come up with this possible microphone setup, to make all dialog from everywhere on the stage intelligible.

What problems am i going to encounter? do i need more mics? should i change the pattern/position/choice of mics. Will omnis work to cover larger areas with clarity?

my client has a relationship with MBHO. it is decided that we will be buying the remaining required mics from them, though we can choose anything from their line. We already have:

* 2 Multi pattern LDCs (the lollipop looking things)
* 2 preamps with cardioid capsules and 3' active cables (useless!). as of now, I am planning to get 2 wide cardioid capsules and about 15' of active cable to suspend from the ceiling grid.
* 2 fixed cardioid SDCs with low cut filters and a pad.
* 2 fixed cardioid SDCs without low cut filters and pad.

we are planning to get two wide cardioid capsules and 3 wide cardioid boundary layer mics. the former will be suspended from the ceiling grid, maybe 12' above the ground?

oh. and we would like to put the BLMs closer to the lip of the stage than shown in the pic, in order to make more room for the performers.

like i said, i'm a newbie to this scene. you can talk down to me

jai shankar.

[Roland]

You didn't say if this was for recording or PA. Whichever it is get an expert on site with you, just going out and buying microphones without any specific knowledge is silly. Even with knowledge I can't tell you what will work in that situation without physically being on the ground and doing a site visit, anyone that claims they can has no more knowledge than you.

Invest in some expert help or it will likely be a disaster.

Regards


Roland

[audiothings]

You didn't say if this was for recording or PA.

PA, 1100 capacity concert hall, 650 downstairs, 350 balcony, conventional proscenium design (without the arch). 8 x 18" subs (4 on each side), 6 x 15" tops (two each for l,c,r) plus delay speakers over and under the balcony. Fairly live room with a lot of diffusion, but no obvious ringing or reverb. I'd estimate RT60 for speech at under .5 seconds.

thanks.

[Roland]

I'll save you some time then, what you are proposing for PA work is useless, start thinking radio's.

It is also fair to say that for a play only, (as against a musical) depending on the layout of the hall PA might not be needed. I recently attended a performance by Stephen Berkoff at a 1,000 seater venue, they initially had him miked for the first 10 minutes of the performance, it didn't sound good. The mics were dropped out for the rest of the show and it was fine.

Regards



Roland

[audiothings]

It is also fair to say that for a play only, (as against a musical) depending on the layout of the hall PA might not be needed.

actually, the idea is to reinforce the acoustic output. the actors (no singing/music here) are expected to project their voices, which is why we have wide cardioid mics evenly placed to cover the length and depth of the stage. It was my idea to augment the principal five mics with the remaining four SDCs, suspended from the ceiling, wherever there are dead spots.

further suggestions welcome.

[Bob Bickerton]

As has been said, this is a challenging scenario where, without professional advice, you could spend a lot of money for minimal improvement!

If radio mics are out of the question, I'd consider using hypercardioid mics. They can be positioned to give more gain before feedback. Wide cardioid and omnis would be asking for trouble.

You'll also need some sophisticated EQ on the system to notch out rogue frequencies.

Bob

[Jim vanBergen]

With all due respect, Jai-

You should price out wireless microphones, as when your producer/director/client ask for it, you should know what it costs.

You can use high end footmics... I prefer DPA 4022s or Schoeps CCM 4s, or use the highest quality cardioid condenser mics and mount them on schockmounts on the stage.

Your PA had better be designed for a large, distributed and matrixed system so that you can actually get useful gain everywhere.

Search "footmics", and see what you find. Also, a google search for "theatre-sound" would provide you a serious resource in their achives.

Hope this helps!

JvB

[Roland]

Every west end show in London I've seen in the last few years is now matrixed, it's made a major improvement to the sound, however these systems tend to cost in the £100's of thousands catagory.

As everyone here is mentioning wide cardioids, even cardioids for what you want to do will be of little use, particularly where you are talking of placing them. There is a reason everyone uses radios (good) shot's and upstage floats (more limited), after years and years of live show's they have proven to be the best solution for the job. For play's, many theatres do not use sound reinforcement at all, neither do most opera houses.

Regards


Roland

[Barnabas]

Originally Posted by audiothings

actually, the idea is to reinforce the acoustic output. the actors (no singing/music here) are expected to project their voices, which is why we have wide cardioid mics evenly placed to cover the length and depth of the stage. It was my idea to augment the principal five mics with the remaining four SDCs, suspended from the ceiling, wherever there are dead spots.

further suggestions welcome.

With all those mics on stage and more in the air, you will be creating some phase cancellation "dead spots." You do not want to be picking up the same actor in more than one mic. If you do, you get cancellation at certain frequencies which will change as the actor moves between the two mics.

If you don't want to go wireless, I'd go with just the boundary mics (Crown PCC160 or similar) across the front of the stage. If you know the show, you can ride the levels to keep the phase cancellation to a minimum.

[Larry Elliott]

Phase cancellation will be the least of the problems in my view. Gain before feedback will be the major issue - especially with the number of subs indicated in the initial post.

As Roland said vary few plays use reinforcement - if you do need reinforcement mute the subs and use PCC160’s across the front of the stage - getting sound from upstage is almost impossible. If you hang mics low enough to get sufficient gain you will be causing all manor of problems for lighting.

Sorry but better you know the problems now so you dont promise too much to the director.

Good luck

Larry

[audiothings]

Sorry but better you know the problems now so you dont promise too much to the director.

thank you for your time and keep 'em coming.

because of all the warnings against the setup i proposed, we've put on hold all decisions for now and blocked 4 e/v half cardioid BLMs from a rental company for now (the only BLMs we could hire here). All other decisions will be made as inputs and advice arrive.

thanks,

[matyas]

I used to do a lot of theater work (regional, but pro-level Equity) and I don't recall ever using reinforcement in a non-musical setting, or as anything but an effect. (Sometimes we'd mic an offstage actor and use some reverb or something, like for the voice of the Ghost in Hamlet.) Even there, it was always wireless. Pro actors don't seem to ever need assistance projecting, even in large houses. I suppose if I really had to do this, I'd look into PZMs. That's what we'd use if there was any video documenting of the event going on.

[huub]

For recording, I've tried spot mics and pcc's and what not, but found the best result I could get that way was pretty crap.. (not really really crap..)

[Splinter]

Since what you are talking about is a theater "festival" in addition to all the really good information you have gotten from this forum (which is amazing) you want to be ready to be flexible.

Even if you were to set up some kind of "grid of mics" I guarantee that the first show that comes in will block al of their actors miles away from where you placed them originally.

Here in NYC, if you were doing this gig it would be fairly simple to wait until you talk to the producer of the show to see what you need and then rent the equipment for that show.

If you are out in the middle of "takes 3 days to get anything" and you don't already have a relationship with a large rental house, you might need to build a contingency package.

A couple of floor mics, a couple of shotguns, some small lavs that you might be able to place on a set piece (either wired or not) and a couple of wireless channels with countryman headsets.

The other thing about theater is realizing you are actually filling in sound rather than amplifying something that no one can hear.

More later.

[Jim vanBergen]

Hey Splinter,
you sound like a fellow B'way sound cat. Whats your name, where do you work?

[Splinter]

My name is Mark Harder. I work all over the place. Including Broadway sometimes.

I had to run out before so I'll just finish my thought. A lot of times the first 35 rows don't need any help with sound. If they did you would have to use individual head mics.

However, the people under the balcony, in the balcony and more than half the way back in the theater would probably really appreciate a tiny bit of time aligned sound reinforcement so that they can enjoy the show like they are in the front row.

Not a ton, but just enough to make is seem naturally louder. Remember, it's never the guy in the front row yelling "I can't hear. Turn it up". It's usually someone in the back.

For that foot mics and shotguns probably WILL give you enough signal before feedback.

[audiothings]

thanks splinter/mark and everyone. great advice!

as of now it seems like we have access to 4 e/v sub cardioid (half cardioid?) pzm/blm/foot mics. Apparently 2 dpa 4060s have been ordered to go with shure slx uhf receivers, but i don't know what we'll do with these during plays with more than two main characters. And we have, like i said, 8 MBHO condensers (6 x sdc, 2 x ldc). we also have a great stage setup tech who assures us that he can fly the mics any which way we want.

i wonder how shotgun mics will be useful during plays where the actors keep moving around? don't they have a very narrow acceptance angle?

thanks much...

EDIT: BTW, I went back and read my first post. I don't think mentioned that I have been running /engineering at my studio for about a decade. I'm a newbie to live/theater sound, but my guesswork in adaptation has worked quite well so far. So if anybody feels like it, you can give me more technical explanations and you can be sure I'll understand.