Anyone going live multi to stereo? +any location mixers being used for that purpose?

[mosrite]

Just trying to get an idea of who here is going live to stereo / 2-track for more than 2 channels.

Are there any major issues with essentially live mixing on headphones for this purpose?

Are there panning issues? e.g. if you have your stereo pair panned L-R but then a soloist that you've spotted isnt in the middle of the soundstage then how can that be live panned effectively if your mobile mixer only gives you L-C-R?

The only advantages I see to this approach are financial, saving on ADC's and recorders (a big advantage!) but what are the major possible issues as folk see them?

I'm considering one of the broadcast mixers to sum to stereo for this purpose. Is there a big compromise with the preamps in these things (like SD or SQN) compared to others pres marketed more towards music recording?

[RobAnderson]

I do this with a lot of classical stuff and have done small jazz combo's as well. The primary benefit is that I can fit everything I need into a rolling suitcase. There is generally a savings in setup/breakdown time, and you don't have to remix it later - it is what it is. However, you have to be constantly on your toes and it goes without saying that you have to know your headphones very well.

I am not sure how many tracks/channels you have in mind. ATI makes a good 8x2 mic preamp/mixer, API makes a 4x2, and Benchmark also makes a 4x2. I have used the ATI and API; both have independent level and panning controls on each channel. These also have the added benefit that they can be chained together with others to create a larger "mixer."

Of course, there is always the good old Mackie. For me, the pre's are not so good, but for mixing line inputs from an external preamp they are fine.

[t_chance]

Preparation is the key. Knowing the program and attending a rehearsal adds time, but always is worth it. I did my first with a recordings on a Mackie 1202. A stereo pair and a couple of spot mics. When that wasn't enough, I got a 16 channel. I was able to set up all my close mics then, with room for ambiance. I now use a Soundcraft M12 or my mix-wizard and am happy with them. When I need more than 16 channels I can borrow a Midas Venus, which does have better pre's. The consoles can be hot-rodded for better summing. (more copper is good) thumbsup.
As far as headphones go I use Sennheiser 280's. good isolation and sound. My buddy has some Extreme Isolation headphones, but I still like my 280's. The main thing I had to get used to is the bass bleed on the bottom end.
On the simple end of things, that Sony PCM-D50 looks better every day.

[fifthcircle]

I've done tons of stuff direct to stereo on headphones- heck, many of the samples on my website were mixed that way (actually, only #1 was mixed on speakers).

The trick is that you just need to know how things translate from your headphones to speakers. What happens to reverb? How about image? What about the low-end and EQ? Once you figure that out, mixing on headphones is no different than mixing on speakers.

Today, while I record just about everything multitrack, the monitor/headphone mix that I make is probably 90% of the way there. The only nice thing about the multitrack in post is the flexibility to tweak that a stereo mix does not.

--Ben

[Bixby]

We are. For this particular series, I'm in the coat room, mixing on a 01V96 on top of a rack of gear. Pres and backup recorder are on stage. MADI connection between.

There's no good way to get separation from the room, so I use my Shure SE530s with heavy duty construction-style hearing protectors.

WBGO and NPR: Live at the Village Vanguard

[Remoteness]

I cut my teeth mixing multiple live performance mics to stereo, but you really have to know your headphones and how they're going to relate to your average pair of speakers.

When applicable, recording the sound check and/or rehearsal is the key to a better mix on headphones. It gives you an opportunity to correct the blend and balance especially when you can play the takes back on a pair of speakers.

With that said, I still always got a better mix using a pair of monitors time aligned to where I was positioned.

[Remoteness]

Nice job Bixby!

Keep up the good work.

Originally Posted by Bixby

We are. For this particular series, I'm in the coat room, mixing on a 01V96 on top of a rack of gear. Pres and backup recorder are on stage. MADI connection between.

There's no good way to get separation from the room, so I use my Shure SE530s with heavy duty construction-style hearing protectors.

WBGO and NPR: Live at the Village Vanguard

[videoteque]

That NPR web site rulesssssssss!!!thumbsup

I'm listening to Brian Blade now, it sounds goood!!!

[springer]

I would second that this type of tracking needs PLENTY of time in advance. (mainly to listen back to test tracks in soundcheck) Most of the jazz dates I do are setup 15 minutes in advance with the drummer attaching his last cymbal right before downbeat. You can examine my thread on "Live to 2 track" for my experience, but I will re-iterate that I will never track this way again. You just cannot hear well enough in the same room as the musicians to mix it well. I do not want to damage my hearing by turning up the headphone volume enough to override the live vibes either...

[LX3]

I agree it can work if you have enough time during the day to get your mix working.

The main problem I find is, doing pop/rock/etc, no matter how early I show up, there are a lot of artists that will not soundcheck properly. Especially groups that are in the middle of a tour... they've soundchecked so much, all they want to do is a line-check, make sure their instruments have arrived and are working, then they're off to dinner.

Half the time they won't even play the same song - or even different songs - at the same time. Even if you have a sound supervisor or someone who can act as a go-between... getting what you need relies on the entire band being present. Usually someone is missing ("Where's Mark, anyone seen Mark?...") and by the time you've found them, the bass player has got bored and wandered off.

The worst soundcheck I had to deal with was a band with about twelve players. There was never even a sensible line-check. Soundcheck consisted of someone plinking at a piano every now and then, then ten seconds of violin, the drummer would play a little snare paradiddle for five seconds... all with two minutes of silence inbetween. It went on like that for two and a half hours, different people randomly showing up for twenty seconds, then wandering off... then everyone was gone. You actually couldn't tell that the soundcheck was over, that's how much difference it made.

I had a crew member at front of house on a walkie, going "Okay, here comes the trombo... oh, no sorry, he's answering his phone now."

Thankfully we were recording to 48-track. Our monitor mix never really came together, because the instrumentation would change unpredictably from one song to the next. I was glad just to get everything recorded, and even then we thought we'd lost something... as it turned out, the tour crew swapped a couple of instruments around during the soundcheck so they were on different lines, and didn't bother to tell me.

Thank heavens they didn't want a rough mix from us on the night, because it would have been an impossibility.

[Bixby]

Originally Posted by videoteque

That NPR web site rulesssssssss!!!thumbsup

I'm listening to Brian Blade now, it sounds goood!!!

Thanks. I think musically the Guillermo Klein is my favorite of the series so far. We're booked for the series through the end of the year, so it should be fun. Speaking of which, tomorrow night (Tuesday, July 1) is our next gig - the Uri Caine Trio. Hope you check it out. Live broadcast starts at 9pm ET (both on WBGO, 88.3FM in NYC and NPR.org/music), then it's archived afterwards.

[Bixby]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Nice job Bixby!

Thanks Steve. I always try to learn something from you when we work with you!

I will echo some of the other thoughts - we generally set up a day in advance, and are sure to get a nice long soundcheck. I'll then go home and reference on speakers and figure out what adjustments need to be made. Though I will say, it's getting easier as I better learn how my SE530s translate.

[audiothings]

way to go man! congrats on the gigs and the great recordings. some of my favourite recordings were done direct to two track. I think its the perfect antidote to the sterile over polished over produced stuff being made today.

not that it really matters, but since this is gearslutz, would you care to describe your rig/technique in a little more detail?

thanks,

[videoteque]

not that it really matters, but since this is gearslutz, would you care to describe your rig/technique in a little more detail?

aka, we want pictures!!!

We grew up on TV!!!

[Bixby]

Originally Posted by audiothings

not that it really matters, but since this is gearslutz, would you care to describe your rig/technique in a little more detail?

We've got 24 channels (8x3) of Focusrite Octopres with the ADAT out option. Clocked by a Lucid. Those feed both a RME-648 as well as our backup multi-track recorder, an Alesis HD24. On the other side of the MADI fiber, we feed another RME-648, which splits out to feed 3 MOTU mk828s/Digital Performer for our primary multitrack recorder, as well as our Yamaha 01v96v2, where the 2-mix happens. A Big Ben handles distribution of word clock (which originates from the Lucid on stage). We're currently using an Apogee PSX-100 to feed digital copies from the output of the mixer to to CD recorders as well as the two ISDN boxes (for the live broadcast). That's about it, whew!

I'll work on some pictures. Here's about the only one I have, of me in the coat closet...

[Bixby]

I've got some downtime before the gig tonight, so here are some pics. First is the stage rig: clock, preamps, RME MADI converter, and Alesis HD24.

Next is the top of the rig in the control room - with UPS, laptop for DP, and 01V96v2.

And here's the rest of the rig - codec conditioner, 2 codecs, power, Big Ben, RME MADI converter, 3 MOTU 828s, Apogee PSX-100, and a Sony CD-R and Tascam DV-RA1000:

Mics are AKGs, Neumann, Sennheisers, etc.