location location location

[Douglas Whates]

Hi guys,

I’m seriously considering setting up a high end location recording rig.

Why? Well, I’ve got to the stage where I’m seriously fed up with the so-so sound of my project studio’s room. Also – more and more people have been asking me if I can record their stuff live.

I’ll mostly be recording classical and the occasional jazz-club jazz. Basically, I’m interested in recreating the instrument(s) as it sounds in the space.

So – I’ve narrowed the recorder down to either the Genex 9000 or 9048. I’ve asked about these recorders before, and the whole post got a bit off topic. One thing seems pretty unanimous though – regardless of whether or not the Genex is used for DSD or simply 16/44.1, it is a good value, high quality recorder. Also – I understand the built in converters are pretty good – hence less stuff to carry. If anyone would suggest otherwise, I’d be interested in your opinions.

Does anyone know, or has anyone used the Genex recorders on location without a laptop. Is it a pain to use?

Pre-amp wise – I reckon it’ll be a Millennia HV-3D w/8 channels. Nice and clean, nice and versatile for live use. If you have any other suggestions, please post them here.

Now the real problem – mic’s.

This is where I’d really like your help. I’m hoping to do this all for under £10,000, which after the Genex and pre-amp leaves me with around £5000. What mic’s would you pick for such a rig? For starters, and considering I’ll be doing a lot of classical, I’m very tempted to pick up a pair of DPAs and a pair of Schoeps w/capsules. I expect this would be a good basis. What else would you add to that?

Your input is appreciated.

Douglas.

[hollywood_steve]

OK,

It looks like I'm the guy to anwer this one........

Your post could be a duplicate to one I posted about 2 years ago. At the time, I had just spent some time at the Genex booth at the 2002 AES show in LA and I was very interested in their GX9000.

Long story, a little shorter.....I bought the GX9000, I left my share of a shitty sounding project studio and set up a high quality location rig around my Genex recorder. Sound familiar?

Not to bore the others around here with a few thousand words of Genex related detail, so here's my email address. Drop me a line with as many specific questions as you'd like. (or use the Private Message utility, but I have forgotten to check that in the past.....)

Steve
lex125@pacbell.net

But reading through your post again, I noticed a couple of more general questions that I'll reply to on the forum.

1. re preamps. You are heading in the generally accepted direction with the Millennia - clean, transformerless preamps that have been used on countless location recordings. I can't argue against that, but I can offer my other suggestion. When I list my favorite classical or jazz records, they are always, without fail, from the late 50's or early 60's (usually Decca classical and Blue Note jazz) Now, every one of those records were made with transformer coupled tube mic preamps, because that is all that existed back then (with very few exceptions). My point being that you might just find that you like the sound of some transformer coulpled preamps AND you might find that you appreciate other aspects of transformers when working on location. Just give some other preamps a try before committing.

2. 5000 GBP worth of mics. Once again, you are right in line with the accepted wisdom, and I can't argue with that. A pair of DPA 4006 or a pair of Schoeps CMC5 w/ the MK2 caspsules have risen to the top of my "must purchase" mic list. So. 2,000 for a pair of one of those two, another 1,000 for a pair of Neumann KM84 cardiods (used) and 1,500 for a pair of Coles 4038, or a Royer SF12 or an AEA R88.

The KM84 is the predecessor to the current KM184, only with a less peaky response. (I own the 184s, they are certainly useable, but they are a little toppy for my taste.) The Coles 4038 ribbon is my current favorite mic and it has the obvious flexibility advantages over the two stereo ribbons that follow. But the stereo SF12 and new stereo R88 are both worth a long look.

With those three pairs, you will be able to select an appropriate main stereo pair for just about any session, and have a few good options for spot mics with the remaining mics. And if my math is correct and you have 500 GBP left, buy a few *good* stands, either lighting (grip) stands or maybe the new Latchlake stand. Location work depends on good stands, and the cheap studio stands you bought with your 57s will drive you crazy on location.

Let me know if you have any Genex questions.

[Douglas Whates]

Thanks for your reply.

I had a read through some of your past posts and had a quick scan of your website - we definitely seem to be on the same wavelength. I'm particularly inspired by the idea of capturing a *preformance* rather than just the notes. I reckon that's the secret to good location recording (and what it often has to offer over studio recording).

I know you don't want to go into a big Genex discussion here, but there are a few things I think might be useful to other forum members.

How do you find the metering on the Genex 9000? Do you use a laptop/pc when recording live, or can it all be done from the genex 9000 interface? Also, some people have commented on the fan noise on the Genex 9K units - have you ever found this to be a problem? How do you find the built in AD/DA on the Genex? Do you have any experience with the 9048? Presumably a laptop/pc would be a must with this (seemingly) meterless recorder? The other thing I'm curious about - how do you get your audio files from the Genex to to you DAW for editing?

If there are any other questions I'll be sure to fire you an e-mail - thanks for the invite!

With regards to mic pre's, I agree - a lot of my favourite recordings don't use transformerless pre's. But, that's not why I reckon I'll plump for the HV-3. I've already got an HV-3B and really like the sound. I also reckon one box will make life a bit easier. If you have anyother recommendations though, please let me know.

Your suggestions for mic's make a lot of sense, but I'm really a newbie when it comes to ribbon mic's. I noticed your other post on the topic and noted you tend to work in venues where more than a 20ft stretch of wire would be unusual. This is probably a little different for me, and I'd expect over 20ft to be the norm. Still reckon ribbons are the way to go? I would get a pair of KM84, but I already have a pair of KM184s, so I'll just use them when I need a brighter presentation.

Yeah - I've used the Schoeps before and they really do have something about them that just oozes class.

You're quite right to point out the need for good stands, and it's something I have already considered - I've actually set aside an extra 1K in my budget for cables, stands and racks. That'll probably end up nearer the 2K mark, no doubt.

Definitely a lot to think about!

Douglas.

[hollywood_steve]

How do you find the metering on the Genex 9000? Do you use a laptop/pc when recording live, or can it all be done from the genex 9000 interface? Also, some people have commented on the fan noise on the Genex 9K units - have you ever found this to be a problem? How do you find the built in AD/DA on the Genex? Do you have any experience with the 9048? Presumably a laptop/pc would be a must with this (seemingly) meterless recorder? The other thing I'm curious about - how do you get your audio files from the Genex to to you DAW for editing?

1. metering - very nice, fully capable and I've had a pair of Dorrough 40A2s for several years, so I'm used to good meters. Prior to purchasing the Genex, I actually planned on building the Dorroughs into my road rack. Didn't happen.
2. laptop/pc - huh? whatever for? The GX9000 is a full featured recorder, just like dragging a big 1" eight track out to a gig, only a little smaller. Just to make things clear, its not like there is an optional remote for the GX9000; there isn't one available because there is no need for it; it does everything you need from the front panel controls.
3. the fan- the fan's comparable to other fans on audio equipment; better than most computer fans, but not silent. The ONLY time that I have even noticed the fan on location was when I was recording an acoustic nylon string guitar played by a "new-age" type who played very softly. I had the recorder less than 10ft from him in the small room we were using. A single sofa cushion standing up one foot behind the recorder took the fan noise level down from barely noticeable to gone. In a concert hall sized room, you could record even the quietest source without worrying about the fan. And in jazz club gigs, you'll never know the fan was on unless you purposely mic it.
4. converters - I'll admit that I have only limited experience with the absolute top of the line converters from EMM, Weiss, the high end Lavry, etc. But I have spent enough time with the next tier, (Mytek, Benchmark, the high end Apogee, Lucid, etc.) to believe that onboard Genex converters can hang at the upper end of that class, easily. Put it another way, switching to a set of outboard converters in place of the onboard Genex units is not even on my list of long term gear purchases. (a nice high end two channel converter is on that list, mostly because the Genex can't be in two or three places at once.)
5. 9048 - my only experience with the big Genex has been while hanging out at the Genex shop. The GX9048 is basically just an overgrown 9000, (48 of everything the 9000 has 8 of) and the only substantial differences are in the controls: you just can't fit 48ch worth of controls or meters on a 19" panel. If you look at the inside of a 9000, it is mostly empty card slots, the same slots that get filled on a 9048. And no, you do not need to use a PC with this model as the hardware remote should be showing at AES, but I could be wrong about this, as I have no real interest in it and haven't asked about its status.
6. editing? - the type of editing that I do consists of cutting out the dead air between songs. On many projects I do not even bother to bring the recording into an editor, (I don't own a DAW). If the client has requested a 16/44 CD, I'll do all of my "editing" when transfering the files to CD. I'll admit that I own an early version of Sound Forge, but I've used it only a handful of times. The minimal features available in CD Architect are more than I need for the type of work I do. The onboard mixer on the Genex has worked for the usual 2, 3 and 4ch recordings that I usually work on. I am now in the market for a high quality analog line mixer (8ch) for use on multi-track recordings, or when a client finally wants a hi-res product. I'll use the Genex converters to export to analog and then convert the final 2 track back to DSD or Hi-Res PCM as required using that new 2ch converter unit that is on my short list.

Hope this helps.

Steve

[Douglas Whates]

Thanks - definitely a big help. By your description, I reckon the 9000 will be the way to go. However, there's something about the expandability of the 9048 that appeals.

I notice that both the 9000 and 9048 can be run remotely with a laptop/DAW, so if the fan noise was really a problem, I suppose you could just trigger it remotely and use a fanless PC!

So - you're saying you don't use a DAW at all and just use the Genex to sum to a stereo channel and then take a line into a CD recorder? Surely this wouldn't work for the final CD as you wouldn't be able to cut out the dead air, like you said. Or am I missing someting?

[henryrobinett]

I don't have much to add, except I'm starting to do more remote recording. For mic pes I use Millennia, Millennia and Millennia. I basically do jazz. I like the clean sound. I have the 8 channel HV-3D, a 4 channel Quad box of HV-3 and a TD-1 DI/HV-3. In addition I use the Metric Halo 2882+dsp and ULN-2 boxes. The ULN-2 has very respectable pres.

I use two ribbons I like a lot: Royer 121 and AEA 84. Makes me nervous but so far so good. No incidents. Also 2 AT4050s, some Pelusos, Okatava 012s, etc. Mix some cheapies in with the relatively good stuff. I'm not doing stereo recordings.

[Greg Heimbecker]

Another great mic pre option is the Earthworks 1024 which to my ear might be just a strawberry blonde hair warmer than the Millenia. I have 14ch of HV-3 (plus a couple Origins) and 10 ch of Earthworks. The Earthworks has the added bonus of a second output per channel with variable output, which can come in very handy at times.

I'm usally feeding a DA-78 through a mytek converter. Either 4 trks of 24/88.2 or 8 trks of 24/44.1 if I need the extra mics. The 2hr tape length is very handy for classical work.

[Douglas Whates]

Thanks for all your help guys.

A few questions aimed at Steve. I tried to post this on the Genex forum, but it wasn't cooperating for some reason...

Would I be right in thinking that when you buy a Genex recorder, you have to decide on what I/O cards to add?

From what I can work out (I'll be recording PCM, mostly), I'd need the Analog I/O card, as I won't be using external A/D. But what would I need if I wanted to interface with a Lynx AES card (although I don't currently own one, from what I can tell from the Lynx AES specs, it has a DSUB connector). The Analog I/O card is stated as having AES3id I/O, but would this be compatible with the Lynx, or would I need the optional AES3 I/O card (or is that only if you want an AES signal on XLRs).

So - let's say I've managed to pick the right I/O cards and I've recorded an 8 track session that I want to get that into my DAW (in my case a PC running Cubase). I take a line from the Genex AES3 I/O card to the input of the Lynx AES card, hit record in Cubase and press play on the Genex.

So now I have 8 tracks on my PC which I can play from my computer's hard drive. Question is - will there be any degradation in quality as a result of this transfer, or should it be completely identical? Essentially, what I'm asking is - will the wav files that are now on my PC hardrive be identical to those on the Genex (bar a bit of dead air at the beginning and end of the tracks)?

If not, what would be the best way to do this? I understand that hot swapping the hard drive is possible, but I don't much fancy copying and pasting files across to my PC, then aligning all the individual takes into Cubase, etc. Just seems like a bit of a drag. Although I reckon a lot of the time it wouldn't be necessary to transfer stuff to the PC, there will undoubtedly be times where it would be useful.

Also - Still curious how you get (and edit) your stuff onto CD without going into a DAW...? Standalone CD recorder I take it? What do you use?

I am also curious about how easy it is to transfer files from one drive to another. For example - is it possible to copy a session from a hard drive in bay 1 to a MO drive in bay 2?

I also notice that there is a firewire port on the back of the unit - from what I gather, this is only used for transferring data to a firewire hard-drive (or firewire MO drive). i.e. it is not possible to read from the Genex by plugging straight into one's computer. Rather, I assume it's a simple copy and paste from internal drive to external firewire drive. Correct?

Thanks in advance,

Douglas.

[hollywood_steve]

A few questions aimed at Steve. I tried to post this on the Genex forum, but it wasn't cooperating for some reason...

Would I be right in thinking that when you buy a Genex recorder, you have to decide on what I/O cards to add?

yes, there are analog, PCM and DSD cards; I got the full load. Figure around $1800 for the full analog/PCM/DSD configuration (over the base price) The good news is that this is pretty much the only available option.
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From what I can work out (I'll be recording PCM, mostly), I'd need the Analog I/O card, as I won't be using external A/D. But what would I need if I wanted to interface with a Lynx AES card (although I don't currently own one, from what I can tell from the Lynx AES specs, it has a DSUB connector). The Analog I/O card is stated as having AES3id I/O, but would this be compatible with the Lynx, or would I need the optional AES3 I/O card (or is that only if you want an AES signal on XLRs).

I can't help you with the Lynx card. Definitely a question for the Genex guys.
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So - let's say I've managed to pick the right I/O cards and I've recorded an 8 track session that I want to get that into my DAW (in my case a PC running Cubase). I take a line from the Genex AES3 I/O card to the input of the Lynx AES card, hit record in Cubase and press play on the Genex.

So now I have 8 tracks on my PC which I can play from my computer's hard drive. Question is - will there be any degradation in quality as a result of this transfer, or should it be completely identical? Essentially, what I'm asking is - will the wav files that are now on my PC hardrive be identical to those on the Genex (bar a bit of dead air at the beginning and end of the tracks)?

Depends on what you believe about digital audio. Some say bits are bits and a copy of a copy of a copy is as good as the original. Others disagree. The "preferred" method of moving large files into your PC is to remove a full drive from the Genex and load it into your PC. Being able to transfer 72G from the Genex to your PC in 10 seconds is the obvious advantage of the swap-able drives.
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If not, what would be the best way to do this? I understand that hot swapping the hard drive is possible, but I don't much fancy copying and pasting files across to my PC, then aligning all the individual takes into Cubase, etc. Just seems like a bit of a drag. Although I reckon a lot of the time it wouldn't be necessary to transfer stuff to the PC, there will undoubtedly be times where it would be useful.

Your method of working is so different from mine, that I'm just the wrong guy to ask. (OK, I'll admit that I'm the one with strange work habits.....) I know little or nothing of editing together a song from multiple takes. For me, 95% of the work is done when I hit the stop button at the end of the tracking session. I bought the Genex for its high quality recording (tracking) capabilities; I doubt that I'll ever use 10% of its features.
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Also - Still curious how you get (and edit) your stuff onto CD without going into a DAW...? Standalone CD recorder I take it? What do you use?

First thing I do whenever I record to hard drive: use the Genex mixer to create a stereo mix of the recording (IF there were more than 2 tracks) and send via the AES output to both CD and DAT recorders (I consider a hard drive file to be temorary at best; hard copies are my first priority) I'll pull the CD version into CD Architect for fades, spacing etc.
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I am also curious about how easy it is to transfer files from one drive to another. For example - is it possible to copy a session from a hard drive in bay 1 to a MO drive in bay 2?

I have two Seagate 15k rpm Cheetah hard drives in my GX9000, and it is simple to copy back and forth between them. More importantly, the recorder can be configured to use one of the drives as an overflow drive, automatically switching over when the 1st drive fills. Or it can be set to create a mirror (copy) of the 1st drive as you record, so you have two copies as soon as the performance is over.
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I also notice that there is a firewire port on the back of the unit - from what I gather, this is only used for transferring data to a firewire hard-drive (or firewire MO drive). i.e. it is not possible to read from the Genex by plugging straight into one's computer. Rather, I assume it's a simple copy and paste from internal drive to external firewire drive. Correct?

Currently, yes, but if you read the most recent thread on the Genex forum, you will see that this has been a popular request and it is a likely future upgrade.
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