Ribbon mics for classical recording

[fifthcircle]

Talkin live or studio?

Ribbons are IMO a pain to use live, but if you get them to work, they are well worth the sonic result. The issue I run into is unless you want to put preamps all over the place, line runs can be too long to get much level. This is especially true when you have to fly them in a hall and you may have 40-50 feet of cable just to get to the ceiling.

Lately, I've done a number of classical gigs using the Royer active ribbons and I've been REALLY happy with my results. Gone are the cable length issues I used to have with other mics and the sound is incredible. I think the sound of the SF-24 is a bit more condusive to using as mains than some of the other mics out there... When using an SF-24 as my mains with an orchestra, I make sure I've got something full frequency as my flanks. When I was in Australia working in the Sydney Opera House, (http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...threadid=17725 ) I used one there with 414TL2's as my flanks and just last week I used one again with B&K4006s as my flanks.

I've used Coles in the field and they are great, but I need pres close to the mcis- same with Beyer 160s. Driving 150 feet of cable doesn't do much for ones sound with ribbons...

--Ben

[sonare]

I agree with Ben (as usual), especially about keeping micpres close to the mics. Cable capcitance becomes a siginificant issue with ribbons, unless you want the top end to REALLY rolloff. I have an SF-12, and for some things (choral, solo voice, certain early instruments, brass touchup) the smoothness is wonderful. For other things, I miss the transient response.

The best thing about the SF12 (and likely the SF24 also) is he lack of crunchiness on choral groups.

Make sure that your micpre is the appropriate input impedance and will give a clean, quiet 55-60 dB of gain. Also, Blumlein often gives too side a stereo spread, so you'll want an M-S option, or the ability to fold in the image a littel in your DAW.

Rich

[hollywood_steve]

Obviously, the distance to preamp problem is only an issue in concert halls and other sizeable rooms. If you are recording a small recital or chamber music type of session, your standard 20ft cables should suffice and that's nowhere near long enough to cause any problems.

I have been moving more and more towards full time ribbon use for classical work. I have a pair of Coles 4038s and a single Royer R121. My next ribbon purchase will be either the Royer SF12 or the new AEA R88 (NOT just a stereo R84)

The big issue that I have with ribbon mics involves preamp gain; not just how much, but what kind. I have a pair of API 312s that Avedis at Brent AVerill just put together for me from a pair of 312 cards that I had purchased elsewhere. They only have about 55dB of gain, but I can run them pretty much flat out and they sound very nice. On the other hand, a friend just purchased the new Chandler TG2 preamp which offers 75dB of gain and I was very interested in obtaining a stereo preamp with lots of gain. But when I tried out my 4038 through the TG2 (on acoustic guitar), I was disappointed to hear some very noticeable crunch with the gain on around 45 or 50. Some preamps stay clean all the way to 11, while others break up much earlier. (this is not a knock on the TG2, its one of the nicest rock preamps that I have ever heard.)

I also have an old V78 that has so much clean gain that I have never even come close to turning it all the way up, even with a ribbon mic on a quiet source. And I obviously don't buy into the idea that you should only use hyper clean, transformerless preamps on classical music. All of my favorite classical records were recorded with transformer coupled tube preamps (what else was there in '59?) and I have never said to myself, "that's a great recording, too bad the mic preamp had transformers." YMWV

[twilt]

if cable length is an issue try mogami 2549, it has ultra low capacitance (3.4pF/Ft) resulting in minimal hf roll off over large distances

quote

W2549 has been designed using our famous Neglex OFC to provide the highest quality audio reproduction in any recording application. It features #22AWG conductors and extremely low capacitance. The 100% coverage served shield and twisted pair construction is excellent at preventing noise caused by electromagnetic interference. This cable is recommended when extended high frequencies are important or where long cable runs may be needed.

[jazzbutcher]

What combo(s) of ribbon mics and pre-amps do you like to use for the various types of instruments/performers that you work with?

For instance: Fave ribbons/pre's on jazz drums? For choirs? etc...

I've used a pair of Coles with Hardy M-1's for room mics in jazz and blues and country-ish settings, and I liked what I got from them.

I'm also curious if anyone has been able to log some hours with both the AEA R88 and Royer SF-24 and been able to compare their performance. I was able to demo an R88 (with help from the Re-birth Brass Band) during Tape-Op a few months ago....I was very impressed and would love to get hold of one. But I'm also curious to learn more about the SF-24.


thanks,

-dave

[Matt Pneumatic]

I agree with all the posts above regarding the cable length issue. It may not be a bad thing though. Just realize that your frequency response from ribbons will have a darker then normal characteristic to them.

I have used the Coles 4038's as stereo Blumlein in many chamber music settings out at the Aspen Music Festival's Harris Concert Hall (see picture below). These are VERY dark microphones with a slow transient response that gives them a warm and smooth vibe. Perfect for instruments that have very abrupt transients such as brass and percussion. I also totally agree with Ben in that because of my description of the Coles above, there must be some sort of full frequency reinforcement such as omni flank mics because of this reduced frequency response.

In addition, I'd like to add that I was fortunate to use an AEA R88 this past summer in Aspen on the Calder Quartet. I found the transient response to be very similar to that of the coles, but the most beautiful characteristic was that there was no disappearance of high end!! The stereo localization was paramount of any Blumlein pair that I've used, ribbon or non-ribbon. In one piece there were flutes that sounded absolutely heavenly. Not harsh, nor did they cut through above the string instruments. Just smooth and delicate. (The room helped a lot too. Harris hall is unbelievable.)

I have never used the Royer SF-24, but I would highly recommend the AEA R88 for a vast array of classical location recording.

[SLS]

Great info guys. That gives me a lot to think about. I look forward to experimenting!

[fifthcircle]

I'll add that one of the things that I really like about the SF-24 (and the R122's as well) is that they don't seem to be affected by long cable runs.

The sound of them is distinctly different than their passive counterparts (I happen to like it more), but the phantom powered amplifier in it works wonders. The output gain, while still a bit low, is certainly workable with any preamp. The sound isn't quite as dark as other ribbons which to me helps it work in a "main pair" type situation. I've driven over 300 feet of mic cable with these things with board preamps (not outboard) and they've been fine.

I really do think that this technology that Royer's done is one of the coolest things that has recently come out.

BTW, the Calder Quartet is a hell of a good group. They've certainly been making waves out here in LA. I was classmates with them at USC and they are all good people. Keep an eye out for them- they're destined to do great things.

--Ben

[Greg Heimbecker]

Matt-what a gorgeous space! I'm supremely jealous!

Adam-where in NC are you? WCU?