The gear for classical and contemporary music

[cvetkom]

Hi everyone!

I have one problem. I am a classical concert and orchestral musician - clarinetist. After some great concerts of contemporary music with live electronics and a few recording sessions of chamber music (I have several different groups) and cds I have decided to buy myself some stuff to make my life easier (or more complicate - depends how you turn it). I am planning to buy:

three or four stereo sets of Neumann km 184 as spots
three tlm 127s - as mains - for different techniques
frontier tranzport -
RME Fireface
RME Octomic II

For example I play in trio and quartett (violin, cello, clarinet and piano), clarinet quartett, woodwind quintett, clarinet quintett (clarinet and strings) and some different ad hoc groups (woodwinds and strings...)

Can anyone help me with a decision of what gear to get for best results and is "budget friendly"?

My budget is arround 10000-12000 EUR
Thanks,
Tadej

[DannyMac]

What are you recording onto, and what mic pres are you using, what mics do you have already?

[cvetkom]

I have a set of km 184 and the pre is octamic II

[cvetkom]

and am recording on a laptop, sorry forgot to mention

[John Willett]

Hi Tadej,

This is the sort of thing I do.

If you record onto a computer, I would suggest you look at the Prism Orpheus.

I use an RME FF400 at the moment, but am now saving to upgrade to the Orpheus.

My microphones are mainly MKH series for neutrality and I'm just about to get an MKH 8020 (omni) stereoset and an MKH 8040 (cardioid) stereoset.

Personally, I prefer to record to a dedicated recorder and am just about to upgrade to the new Nagra VI for this.

The last time I recorded a clarinet quartet I used a simple MKH 30/40 MS set-up - the CD sold out within a couple of weeks and I also recorded a second CD for them.

I monitor on K+H O110D and HD 650 and HD 25 headphones.

I hope this helps.

[jnorman]

goodness - why so many mics? and why those particular choices? i have owned three pairs of km184s over the years, and never found them to be quite suitable for classical work due to high end rise seeming rather harsh on most instrumental sources. (the 184s do, however, do a fair job as close mics on acoustic guitar or jazz piano, and a few other things). for small ensemble work like you sre describing, the conventional wisdom is a single pair of cards in ORTF/NOS, or pair of nice spaced omnis depending on the acoustics of the room where you are recording. generally spot mics make for more problems than they solve for this type of work.

for your main pair, you should look for mics with a flat freq response curve, such as DPA 4011s, 4006s, schoeps cmc64s (or mk2 omni caps), sennheiser mkh series, josephson series six. the akg c481s are about the most affordable mic out there that offers neutral character, IME, and they can often be had for under $1000/pair. if you prefer neumann, the TLM170s are excellent for classical work - for a bit less money, the TLM193 is also quite a good mic for this, as are the km131 omnis.

[Plush]

Don't do it because recording is best left to those with much experience.

YOU just play the clarinet and let the recording people get you the most flattering sound.

Sorry, these are my real feelings. To master recording, it will take you just as many years as it took you to master the clarinet. Now THAT's the truth.

[videoteque]

You can't record AND play and give 100% in both alleys.

So if you have the recording buzz in your head and want to take it out, get yourself a nice stereo recorder and a nice couple of mics. You will use only 25% of your budget. Should you want to get more things, you will always be in time!!!

One good combination could be a Korg MR-1000 recorder and a couple of Senheinser 8040s, battery operated, small/light, high-quality. But there are thousand others combinations.

I would seriously advice against taking a computer with you.

[pkautzsch]

If you want to record yourself, you'd best concentrate on the playing, and keep the recording stuff as simple as possible. That's an ORTF pair.
If you want the recording to be released, you'd better hire someone who can fully concentrate on the recording part.

Contrary to others' opinions, I've found the KM184 to be a very good mic for classical if you keep them at a distance. Positioning them a bit farther away than you'd normally place cardioids gives a very nice sound plus a bit more "glue".
You can later add a pair of KM183s if you want omnis.

[Corran]

Well I for one have recorded orchestra and band concerts while playing piccolo at the same time! Other than the possibility of gear screwing up, it doesn't phase me (I have a backup though!).

While it's true you have to learn, I would never tell someone to "stick to their day job" as it were! We were all amateurs at one point! I myself have not had one person give me "lessons" or "apprentice" to for recording. Go for it if you want! And you're spending some big bucks so I guess you really are interested, though in my opinion you don't need all of that, or half of it even. There is much cheaper gear that will get you started than a ton of Neumanns and whatever else.

[Jim vanBergen]

I agree with the sentiment that it's impossible to have an objective opinion to one's playing AND one's recording. Otherwise Yo-Yo Ma and Itzahk Perlman would have engineering and producing credits on their albums.

BUT, you can do it if you choose. And you seem to have chosen. So... embracing that decision, and understanding that for your most critical recordings you'll STILL want an objective set of ears operating your machines and monitoring:

I would start with a main pair without spots, and a lot better (higher end) mic preamp to an A/D and recorder. Then you can add a mixer and spot mics as you move along, IF you decide to move along, once you compare your ORTF or spaced pair recordings with the CDs you have done. I mean, you can do this in week one is you want. No harm, no foul, and a lot less $$ spent.

If you still want to go the whole enchilada...good luck, and go for it! We all started somewhere. Few of us began with a mic locker of 30 Schoeps (I did, by accident) and loving the engineering & producing made me decide to stop playing. I don't regret it, and MY situation is not yours....just my $0.02.

Hope this helps!

Good luck, let us know what you decide to do and how it works out!

JvB

[peterwild]

Originally Posted by cvetkom

My budget is arround 10000-12000 EUR
Thanks,
Tadej

that amount of money you'll get Orpheus, pair of schoeps or new MKH 8020...8040 + laptop (macBook and logic?)

[Roland]

Are you a serious pro musician?

Plush was right on the money. If you are pro buy yourself a zoom to record your rehearsals and for your own amusment, the other 12,000 euros would pay for 4 - 6 high quality sessions, probably enough output for 4 - 10 years of your career.

The gear you are proposing although good, isn't enough to cover all situations, that would cost you many times that, for example I'm currently using gear that probably owes me £100,000.

Of course if you are an amateur hack, control freak, or just want to blow the cash, go for it!

Regards


Roland

[cvetkom]

Thanks to all!

The thing is I need the gear for everyday practicing with live electronics. The other mics are to expend my gear. I have already 2 sets of KMs - what I did not mention - and I found them quite good. I appreciate all the opinions and suggestions I got on this forum. I know that it is a lot of money being spent on something I do not have so much experience on. From where I come from is very difficult and expensive to hire a studio for every new contemporary music piece with life electronics I play. For example If I do a Pierre Boulez piece Dialogue de l’ombre double or Steve Reich New York counterpoint, I have to record the tracks first, than do the whole six or eight channel set up for further life performance. For monitoring I use a Yamaha HS80M set.
Reading your experiences and thoughts on how to make it better or cheaper… Which large diaphragm mics would you also use in my place?
I have tested the tlm127 against U89 and I found them both great – the 89 is still better but I think the first one will do just fine.
Thanks

[cvetkom]

In May I participated a festial Electromediaworks in Athens Greece where I met a French saxophone genious Daniele Kienzy. We discussed the same problems as we do now. In his opinion is an own gear for the musicians that practice life electronics and contemporary music a great need.
He uses Neumann u89s, Km184s… does have a better monitoring possibilities than me, apogee preamps, etc.
It is also more convenient for me to work on the piece as long as it takes and when I feel really ready to make the recording, I don’t need to wait in the endless lines for the studio hours. When I move on the stage while playing for example Boulez (don’t want to have wireless on my clarinet) I need several mics. Then I change the piece after this and the position where I perform (Musgrave: Narcissus for clarinet and digital delay) I have to use again two other mics and a soundcart to an other laptop to make the composition together with MAX/MSP and the pedals. One cannot pick up mics from every position to an other in concerts.

[Legacy]

Hi cvetkom,

Sounds like you are playing some really cool music. I agree with you that having your own mics and gear for live performance with electronics is really important. In most performance venues you wouldn't even find anything or at best a bunch of really crappy stuff.

A lot of the pieces you mention are very studio-time / budget intensive so recording yourself ends up being a frequent compromise.

In my experience the gear that works well for live isn't always the best for high quality recording and vice versa although I'm sure there is some happy medium stuff. For instance I often like how a main pair of omnis with a ribbon or large diaphragm tube spot mic sounds on clarinet. Omnis, ribbons, and tubes can be tough live...

Perhaps look at switchable pattern mics like AKG 414 ULS or Neuman U87 for the flexibility and 'generally sounds good on most things' nature.

As has been mentioned, Schoeps and Neumann KM100 series (not the 184 / 183 but the 130 / 140 stuff) switchable capsules can be nice choices as well for different colors / pickup on the same mic body.

Recording live instruments with electronics is its own animal that needs a different approach for mic placement than traditional chamber music IMO. If you record the live instruments with only an ambient pair the mix could be really tough because the electronics will always sound in front of the live stuff (because they actually are closer to the 'mic').

As with most of these questions no one can really give you a specific mic recommendation because we don't know what you sound like or what you want your recordings to sound like. But the general trend of advising you to aim higher in mic choices and preamp choices is very good advice. You will likely go through many generations of mic choices before you find the 'holy grail(s)' for your aesthetic just as most of us have.

Enjoy the trip,
Silas

[cvetkom]

This is what I ment and that's why I already use the two sets oh KM184s that did a good job for me. I just spoke to a dealer who will give me MKHs8020 and 8040 to test at home. Hopefully I will get a TLM 170 the next week too. What do you think about RME octamic II?
Thank you for the advices,...

[VukOnCrack]

cvetkom,

I also wanted to pipe in on your repertoire selection. It's great to learn of a player dedicated to the pieces and composers you've mentioned. Keep it up!

[mohthom]

cvetkom,

Do you not have some flavour of Mac at all anyway? It sounds like, if you do any mixed electronics works, you'll be using something like PD, Max//MSP or SonicBirth etc. - what are you running your processing through?

For myself, I'm trying to slim down my already slim rig to fewer better components. You're a classical musician - act like it and don't spot everyone! Can't you balance yourselves? A single pair should be enough for most ensembles. What's so wrong with a pair of DPA 4006s?

If you need many more mics out there, you need someone else to operate the rig - no question. One ensemble I worked with had a 1-player 1-tech +1 for the mix - system that worked well for mxed pieces.

MohThoM

[John Willett]

For recording your sort of music I would use an ORTF pair of MKH 8040 or an MS pair of MKH 30/40.

Musicians can normally balance themselves and a simple stereo recording normally sounds much better than a multi-mic with loads of spot mics and time-delay distortion.

I would record into a Nagra VI or Nagra LB (hopefully getting my VI in a week or two), but a Prism Orpheus and Laptop would do perfectly as well.

For rehearsals, I would go for an Olympus LS-10 over a Zoom - small, sturdy and under £300 (street price less).

[fifthcircle]

A few things are coming to mind here... First of all, you're in the same position that I was probably about 10-12 years ago when I was a student coming out of grad school. I too am a clarinetist, but I was bitten by the sound bug. I've played Narcisus, I've played Domains (I assume that is the Boulez that you talk about). As a matter of fact, I studdied Domains with Mitchell Lurie, who did the American premiere of it at the Ojai festival out here in Los Angeles...

Anyways, as I digress... You have gotten some great advice here and some advice that I would characterize as being uninformed when it comes to the music that you are playing.

For live performance, I would recommend a wireless rig so that you have the freedom to move about and have a consistency of sound. However, I would not recommend a rig that clamps to your instrument. Surprisingly enough, one of the best live clarinet sounds I've ever gotten was in a show where the performer (another big name), required a wireless lav mic. He positioned the microphone on his chest, roughly behind the split between the top and bottom joints. We used an omni directional mic and the pickup was fantastic. To do this, I'd recommend a DPA 4061 plugged into a good quality wireless rig (Shure, Sennheiser, etc... have top-end systems that sound good and are frequency agile). The low end wireless rigs will almost certainly be too noisy for you (the Sennheiser G2 comes to mind).

For mics on stands, the usual suspects that are recommended here are pretty much the same- You also may like a couple Beyer M160 ribbon mics. They are good clarinet mics and the hypercardiod pattern helps control pickup on stage.

Recording: Listen to the advice that Plush gave very seriously. Do not try to record and perform at the same time. I can guarantee that one will suffer. I used to do this myself and always ended up with either a sub-par performance or a sub-par recording or both... Hire somebody that you trust when it comes to the important stuff. If you are worried about the gear that may be used, then provide equipment, but allow another engineer to do the job. You can certainly be involved, but it is best (by far) to concentrate on your performance as a player. For the important shows I did, I ALWAYS hired somebody to record for me. I was always happy I did.

Silas hit the nail on the head about recording some of this music... you need your spot mics to make sure that the perspective is maintained with electronics and the acoustic musicians. New music is a very different thing to record than traditional classical music and anybody that suggests that purist techniques (ie only a stereo pair) will work just fine is unexperienced with this kind of music... I'm not recommending overriding the will of the players with ballance and only sometimes will I take an active role in the mix... But there is a clarity and control over texture and sound that new music recordings need that your traditional ensembles just don't need.

Last week, I was doing the sound and recording for the Ojai festival out here in LA. We had a wide range of music that ranged from some more purist classical stuff (Pergolesi) to pieces with electronics by Reich (the composer in residence), Manoury, Jarrell, Narboni and others... Some of my concerts had upwards of 30 microphones on stage besides the decca tree and flanks I had on stage. Some were for the sound reinforcement, but others were to even out the textures of sound between electronic and acoustic instruments. To not have the extra mics would have been a rather massive mistake.

To get down to the original questions- I'd stay away from the Neumann mics that you mention. I think the bright top end will not get you what you were looking for. Rather, a combination of mics from Sennheiser 8000 series for condensers to Beyer Ribbons to Schoeps would do you very well. As far as preamps go, the Octamic is ok... Not great, not horrible. Certainly better than a lot, but there are tons of great pres out there. I would suggest getting a couple channels of something really good that you can use for recording and suppliment it with more channels of a lower-quality preamp. Do a search and you'll find lots of suggestions of good pres here. That isn't worth writing a lot about. It depends on your budget as to what you buy. I would also highly suggest looking at preamps on the used market. You'll save a lot of money for better quality.

Good luck with everything...

--Ben

[Chris Wilson]

Perhaps you want to spend many years learning the subtle art of recording, as you did the clarinet. It certainly would not be a waste of your time, but probably, your first clarinet was not a “Neumann 184.” Learning about the recordings you already own in your LP/CD collection will teach you a lot for free, before you make your investment in microphones, preamps, etc.

Even if we attend, record, or perform multiple shows in a week, we likely listen to recordings even more. So, even if you choose not pursue the money-pit of sound engineering, it would only be a benefit to your own work to learn as much as possible so that when you do record, you can communicate what you want with a real vocabulary and not words like “warm” and “round.”

Live sound is an entirely different world than recording, and recording contemporary music that utilizes amplified and acoustic sounds is a real challenge. Glad to hear you perform Pierre Boulez. While I doubt he records his own electroacoustic pieces, he is a visionary and a real hero.

Best of luck,

[cvetkom]

Dear Benjamin!

Thanks for the advices! I played the Domaines of Boulez, but right now I am performing the piece called Dialogue de l'ombre double. The idea of DPA sounds good indeed,... In the autumn I am performing in Slovenia, Croatia, Germany and Switzerland the compositions of Reich, Boulez, Musgrave, Scott Neal, and one other American composer I cannot give the name yet. I will be using two different laptops (security), one running a sequencer other max/msp, so I will think about trying DPA.
Until then I have to prerecord the 10 clarinet parts for the New York Counterpoint of Steve Reich and assemble the setup for live electronics performance (wanna do it in this way).

[matyas]

I don't have too much to add beyond what's already been stated, but I'll also join the chorus and say that it's glad to see a performer tackling some of these very exciting compositions for clarinet+electronics. For what it's worth, I got my start in audio as a composer doing electronic music and pieces combining instruments and electronics. (I'd been interested in classical recording for years before that and playing various instruments, especially oboe, even longer than that.) It's very refreshing to see a performer interested in learning Max/MSP and microphone techniques beyond just practicing the same scales and etudes! (Not that I have anything against the standard repertoire - I do love that too.)

[cvetkom]

Anything written for me?
greetings, T

[Shadow_7]

As one who plays and records, having someone else do the recording is preferred. I've slimmed down my rig from a laptop + interface + mics, just for the convienence factor. With the Korg MR-1000 I can hand the mic stand with all things attached to a relative amatuer to position / turn on while I perform. If battery life wasn't an issue I could just turn it on and pass the stand. Without me there, I've got to preset the gain to the loudest group. The amatuer volunteer doesn't always know what good mic positioning is. But with a stereo pair, there's a chance that at least one of the mics is pointing towards the group.

It is frustrating knowing that you and your gear could do better. And it takes a bain of experience to know what to preset the gain to. I'm at the point where I'm debating whether to just record next year instead of perform. The recorded media really helps the group progress at a much faster rate. So I definitely want to keep recording. The logistics of recording and playing can be a bit overwhelming. If only as a security concern of having your relatively expensive and portable gear out of sight even for a minute.

Maybe not applicable in your situation. But food for thought. I performed in the rain on Saturday so I was NOT able to record. Had I just been recording, I probably could have found a way to safely record without sacrificing the gear.

[NorseHorse]

You've met Kienzy?! That's awesome. I'm a big fan of "Kienzy Loops".

I can appreciate the need to record yourself. I did a piano performance not too long ago where I recorded myself playing for about a minute and a half and then immediately played back what I recorded while improvising on top of that.

Since it sounds like most of your work won't be studio releases, you probably don't need to engage in the gear nit-picking that professional, full-time engineers need to do.

Your Neumann mics will take you a long way, but don't think they're the only ones that will get you a good (or the best) sound. DON'T BUY MORE THAN YOU NEED. For a case like yours, moving one step at a time is the best way to go.

Good luck and I hope everything goes well. Contemporary music is breeding new types of musicians.

[Poorsche]

Ouch! Man, i gotta learn how to use this Nagra IV-L...

Anyone who wants sound advice on Nagras... listen to Plush; knowledgeable, honest and visceral!

BTW: Plush, i seek your kind advice on optimal condenser mic choice(500 price range) for mono recording on bassy male vocals and acoustic guitar using this IV-L. Peace!

[Plush]

I don't buy your comments for 1 second.

It's clear that you don't understand how to use the Nagra.

Don't come in here giving advice that shows that you are talking out of your rear end.

[John Willett]

I was recording with the Nagra VI over the weekend and it's a superb machine and very easy to use (and I have never used a Nagra in anger before).

My one minus point was, as I thought, just a firmware upgrade that was missing from the first version and is easily done on a firmware download.