recommend wireless lavs for film/location recording?

[stupid8track]

hi

i've been enlisted to get location sound on a film school video shoot because i'm the only guy they know who has ever done anything with audio. i've tried to explain that i'm not a location guy, but it goes in one ear and out the other. it's a good chance for me to try something new and since nobody's career can get burned by failure, here i am.

the way they want to shoot, wireless mics would be of tremendous benefit - a lot of hand held, chasing the action type of shots. thing is, i don't know the first thing about wireless. i've heard it can be inconsistent and troublesome, with things like frequency interference and 'garment' noise for example. i've had to clean up my fair share of poorly recorded location dialogue - but i haven't actually created any poorly recorded location dialogue myself, so this is very exciting (and i'm not going to have to clean this up - no one is. what i get is what they've got.)

certainly i'll be talking to local rental houses, but i was wondering if anyone had experience, positive or negative, with any specific wireless lav systems.

the mics will be needed for a desert shoot. i will need 2 of them. they will be recording directly to camera, through some ratty little 3 channel mixer. i could possibly bring out a DAT and record the lavs to that (leaving 2 camera channels for a boom and camera mounted shotgun), but i'm not sure i want to open up that door (bringing my own gear and then having wild audio to sync later, which might have to be synced by me, which wouldn't be a problem but for the time - this gig don't pay, it is just a kind gesture, but try explaining that to Visa). it is just a film school exercise.

that said, i do like these people and would like to get them the best sound possible. and it is a good chance for me to learn something too.

so, does anyone have any preferences for wireless lav systems (obviously, quality is less important than functionality and dependability on something like this)?

or does anyone have any tips//suggestions for this type of thing?

or, if this is the wrong place to ask about film location recording, does anyone know a better place?

cheers all

[inaudio]

There are better places to ask about film sound, but I know a thiong or two about wireless:

The more you spend the better they get. If you spend less than $1,000 each you will have problems to solve on the set or in post, so check you budget!

And you must have the cooperation from camera and director (and producer) to wait while you solve problems, or take what you get AND be blamed for it later.

I quit the film biz while still doing student films and was having 23 hour days on 8 hours (low) pay, and the director would not listen to me about what was required for a shot's sound. The glamor wasn't worth it!

<L>

[fifthcircle]

Yeah... Rent, rent, rent, rent, rent...... Unless you are doing enough work with this stuff to pay for it, it isn't worth the money to buy. Granted a couple weeks of union work will pay for a good rig, but if you are asking these questions, you probably aren't up for a gig like that.

Also, a rental house will make sure that you get a rig with the frequencies that are open in your area. Nothing worse than being on set and getting a ton of RF hits.

That being said. I've done a few location jobs using wireless. I've had pretty good luck with Lectro rigs- especially their hybrid digital setup. Microphones used with these are usually Sanken and Tram.

If it is possible, you'll get a better sound through the use of boom micing, but if you go that way, you'll need to have a good boom operator. Your boom person can make or break your mix.

Not to try to steer you off of this board, but the rec.arts.movies.production.sound newsgroup has guys that do this kind of work every day posting. You'll get a lot of great info there...

--Ben

[Bob Olhsson]

The big thing is to keep your wireless hops as short as possible. Hide the receivers in the set and run cables back to the mixer location.

[Tim Halligan]

Originally posted by fifthcircle
Yeah... Rent, rent, rent, rent, rent...... Unless you are doing enough work with this stuff to pay for it, it isn't worth the money to buy. Granted a couple weeks of union work will pay for a good rig, but if you are asking these questions, you probably aren't up for a gig like that.

Also, a rental house will make sure that you get a rig with the frequencies that are open in your area. Nothing worse than being on set and getting a ton of RF hits.

That being said. I've done a few location jobs using wireless. I've had pretty good luck with Lectro rigs- especially their hybrid digital setup. Microphones used with these are usually Sanken and Tram.

If it is possible, you'll get a better sound through the use of boom micing, but if you go that way, you'll need to have a good boom operator. Your boom person can make or break your mix.

Not to try to steer you off of this board, but the rec.arts.movies.production.sound newsgroup has guys that do this kind of work every day posting. You'll get a lot of great info there...

--Ben

I'm not sure if you are referring to the actual mic heads, or the whole Tx/Rx system as a whole...
Having said that, you will definately want to take a DAT or other recorder into the field because - lets face it - nobody really wants to chase a cameraman all day. By all means, feed the camera with your output...let the camera be your backup...but for the big action stuff, get it on DAT first. As long as they are clapping each take, syncing is (apart from the time) a non-issue.
Ben hit the big issues in his post: get a good boom-swinger. This cannot be overstated. Don't argue...just do it. Mics-wise: Sanken,Tram,Miilimic,Sennheiser MKE2's are all good. Tx: Lectrosonics, Sennheiser, and the higher end Sony's are all good. Get some elastic body-bands for strapping the Tx to the actor. Get some fluffy windshields for the mic heads...Rycote do good ones. Boom mics: Get an 816. 416/MKH60's are fine indoors, but outdoors NOTHING beats an 816. Even the newer MKH70's don't come close. This mic and a sh!t-hot boomie will save your life...every damn day. Sorry if I'm ranting...I'm mixing a series at the moment where the location recordist didn't have an 816 OR a good boomie...can you say ADR...a lot.

Good luck.
Hope this helped.
Cheers,
Tim

[PlugHead]

IME,

I'd suggest Lectrosonic's TX/RX (if you can afford it, otherwise rent) and Sanken heads: they are day in, day out, one the best wireless solutions. Sennheiser make some nice units as well, but the Lectro's signal is really hot, and they have loads of headroom. I just used a pr. 0f 210's/200's for TX to camera, while using (timecode) DAT for backup: very nifty to be free of cabling to the cameraman, but using 4 X TX/RX means a lot of battery swapping, and they are thirsty! I also concur with boom - always use it, and never regret it. I'd say either the 416/816 for consistency, but I like the Neumann KMR-81/82 a bit better, and the guys in post seem to like it for matching sound(s). PS: you don't have to have a clapper, but it is handy - on docs, we use free run/jam and bump before shooting - depends on the quality of the kit's clock, and ability to gen. TC freely. This seems to work for us...

Best of luck,

[SLS]

For wireless, I give thumbs up to Lectrosonics stuff. For the mics, I usually use the Countryman B6, or a Tram TR50. That said, I also usually run a shotgun mic as well when possible. Sennheiser 416, Sanken CS-1, etc are pretty good choices. There were some other good suggestions as far as that goes already posted here.

BTW, I also always rent this kind of stuff because A) There isn't as much work in these areas for me, and B) The situation is different every time, so its easier to rent as you need it.

[stupid8track]

thanks for all the great advice.

yes, this is definitely a rental as i don't ever see myself trying to make a living doing location sound. this is more a favor which i am telling myself is an opportunity to learn/experience the other side of sound (capture). i've been on shoots before, but never doing sound.

and there will definitely be a boom but in all likelihood he/she will have almost zero experience and will probably sit around half the time doing nothing because the way they want to shoot leaves little room for a boom. this is a film school shoot and they just don't want to spend ANY money on sound (in their defense, they don't have a lot of money - but then, who does?). they see wireless as a way to possibly 'set it and forget it' with sound - a way to 'improve' the sound quality while spending little to no time (after set-up) on it.

the only reason i'm even thinking wireless is that it is my impression they are going to shoot these desert scenes totally handheld where the camera is going to be as active as the actors. these are running, fighting scenes. having shot a test scene with them, it was often difficult for the boom operator to get anywhere near the actors because often boom spends most of the time trying to stay out of the way of camera. there weren't fixed marks, or any official block of the actors, so knowing what was going to happen next - where the actors were going to go, what the camera was going to do - was always a calculated guess. hopefully there will be a little less 'flying by the seat of their pants' on the real shoot. this has been brought up as something which coulf be a problem (the chaos), but it remains to be seen if things will be different next time.

anyway, i'll take the above advice and talk to some rental houses.

thanks for all of your help. it is very much appreciated.

and fifthcirle - i'll try to get over to rec.audio... to ask around.

cheers