Cardioids . when do you prefer them over wide cardioid and omni ?

[ISedlacek]

I have Schoeps MK21 and MK2 pairs and use MK2 on most of things. I used to have MK4V as well but after I found I have not used it for ages, I sold it. Now I am again thinking that I SHOULD have a cardioid pair as well ... Because I don´t have it )))

Just have borrowed DPA 4023 pair. I tried it on variety of my usual sources (acoustic instruments in my studio) and again felt that although sounding nice, comparing to using MK21 or MK2 , the sound of the instruments is more "constricted", narrow etc. Using omnis, immediately makes the instrument sounding more relaxed and more natural. Always. Or at least MK21 .... I still may try Sennheisers 8040, but it is likely that the feeling may be similar ...

So it seems I don´t need cardiods at all ? Even for ORTF, MK21 sound very great (I will record one big choir soon).

Still thinking of one more microphone pair (I have 6 channels preamps/AD) and only 4 mics (just sold my AEA R88 - nice, but I have not used it almost at all and in the end I always found I prefer condenser sound).

If I get cardioids, I may again find I don´t use them at all ... Maybe slightly different flavour than Schoeps ? LDC ? DPA 4015 ? Since the third pair will be just occassional, I may not think of those very costly ones ... What about say Earthworks ? They look great, priced nicely, but have a reputation of being a bit noisy ?

[hughesmr]

I think it's more important to know what/where you record. If you record on location in variable acoustical spaces, a good directional pair is a valuable asset to help tame those not-quite-so complimentary venues. If you are in a studio/controlled environment all the time and are happy with the sound of wide cards and omnis, maybe you don't need to be thinking that much about cards. (I am in similar situation as you ... have MK21 and MK2S pairs, and they are my workhorses. I also have a pr of 8020 that are a nice compliment to the MK2S, which are better for more intimate miking.)

You are used to Schoeps, so I think getting Earthworks will probably disappoint you in the long run (i.e. you won't reach for them often, hence $$ wasted). EW are generally good mics, all I'm saying is your ears are tuned to Schoeps, so, you know...

If I were in your shoes looking for a single pr of cards to fill a hole in my collection, the 8040 would be my first audition. Maybe a used pr of MKH40 can be found? Also, I have a pr of Gefell M300 which are very nice, and are in the same price range as 8040.

[John Willett]

Dobry den ISedlacek

The thing about omnis is that they have a good flat extended bass end - directional mics. roll-off much earlier.

Schoeps cardioids seem to be particularly bass light.

The Sennheiser MKH 8040 cardioid is flat down to 30Hz - lower than all other SDC cardioids I know.

If I had to have just a few mics I would go for a stereo set of omnis, a stereo set of cardioids and a fig-8.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by John Willett

The Sennheiser MKH 8040 cardioid is flat down to 30Hz - lower than all other SDC cardioids I know.

Now you'll know about some other mics-the Sennheiser MKH range of mics are hardly the only game in town for LF extension in SD, and the other mics do it without the EQ that Sennheiser employs. There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach.

There are SD directionals in all price ranges that handle frequencies well lower than 30 Hz. The Oktava MC012 cardioid and supercardioid do, and the Shure SM81. The Gefell 300 have a very extended bass with a very smooth roll off. I can't imagine wanting more low end than they offer. Several-or more- of the very small AT uni-point cardioid mics (meant for hanging but come holders to mount them conventionally) are flat to 20-Hz. I haven't looked recently at the AKG 480 and caps, the the old 460 and cardioid cap had a lot of output in the 30 Hz range. And then there's the Beyer MC930-they do have a bit of roll off, but no one would call them "lacking," and it would only take about 2 or 3dB of EQ to bring them to the range of the MKH 40 and 8040.

The MKH 40 and 50 showed a fair degree of phase shift in the lower regions, according to Sennheiser's own published documents. Not bad at all, but not class leaders. I don't agree that the Schoeps cardioids are "particularly bass light." They seem to have a rather common roll off point for a general purpose cardioid.

There are as many advantages as disadvantages with what is included or not in the lower end of a directional.

BTW: I like the Sennys.

A little digression:
The TLM193, 170, and U89 are not exactly large diaphragms, they occupy the middle ground of diaphragm size. They have bass that won't quit.


For the OP: Note that the EW and DPA cardioids do have a much higher roll off than most other general purpose cardioids. Pay particular attention to reading the DPA graphs. Their "middle" or "main" roll off curve is plotted from only 0.3 meters, not the 1 meter standard employed by almost everyone else. Be sure you're looking at the one for 1 meter.

As always, it's the ears that have to decide.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by JEGG

Now you'll know about some other mics-the Sennheiser MKH range of mics are hardly the only game in town for LF extension in SD, and the other mics do it without the EQ that Sennheiser employs. There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach.

There are SD directionals in all price ranges that handle frequencies well lower than 30 Hz. The Oktava MC012 cardioid and supercardioid do, and the Shure SM81. The Gefell 300 have a very extended bass with a very smooth roll off. I can't imagine wanting more low end than they offer. Several-or more- of the very small AT uni-point cardioid mics (meant for hanging but come holders to mount them conventionally) are flat to 20-Hz. I haven't looked recently at the AKG 480 and caps, the the old 460 and cardioid cap had a lot of output in the 30 Hz range. And then there's the Beyer MC930-they do have a bit of roll off, but no one would call them "lacking," and it would only take about 2 or 3dB of EQ to bring them to the range of the MKH 40 and 8040.

The MKH 40 and 50 showed a fair degree of phase shift in the lower regions, according to Sennheiser's own published documents. Not bad at all, but not class leaders. I don't agree that the Schoeps cardioids are "particularly bass light." They seem to have a rather common roll off point for a general purpose cardioid.

There are as many advantages as disadvantages with what is included or not in the lower end of a directional.

BTW: I like the Sennys.

A little digression:
The TLM193, 170, and U89 are not exactly large diaphragms, they occupy the middle ground of diaphragm size. They have bass that won't quit.


For the OP: Note that the EW and DPA cardioids do have a much higher roll off than most other general purpose cardioids. Pay particular attention to reading the DPA graphs. Their "middle" or "main" roll off curve is plotted from only 0.3 meters, not the 1 meter standard employed by almost everyone else. Be sure you're looking at the one for 1 meter.

As always, it's the ears that have to decide.

I agree with a lot of this.

But look at the frequency response curves when you compare.

Sennheiser is the only manufacture I know that publishes the phase response of microphones - the MKH are ruler flat except at the frequency extremes. I have never seen a published phase response from any other manufacturer.

The measuring standard *is* 1-meter and Sennheiser and most manufacturers measure at this distance.

If the measurement is done at a closer distance, then proximity effect comes into play and you may think that the mic. has a better bass response than it actually does.

I know that Schoeps measure a bit closer than 1m, I had not realised that DPA do as well. Schoeps *do* make superb mics, without a doubt, but I have heard several people saying that the directionals are a bit bass light and had discussed it with Joerg Wuttke - I even know one person who got a cardioid response by using an omni and fig.8 together as this gave a better bass than the cardioid capsule on its own.

[Loki]

DPA publish phase response. They also publish proximity effect responses for roll off. Just checked the recent catalogue and they're both there -- would be surprised if the website doesn't have the same info. However, the main graph shows the cardioids at 30cm -- though the proximity effect graph show multiple measurements for distance including 1m.

It appears that DPA targets a flat response at 30cm for cardioids (which could make a lot of sense for spot micing) The omnis are measured at 1m it seems.

[sonare]

From personal use I can say that the TLM193 are the closest to "omni" smoothness above 100 Hz. Size does enter the equation, however.

If that option is too large, the Senn8040 sound VERY close to the Schoeps Mk21.

The question for you is if you want more of what you already have. The overall Senn 80XX sound is a little cleaner than Schoeps.

Ebay price on TLM193 is $600-700; Senn 8040 can be had for $1100.

Rich

[hughesmr]

I have the Senn 8020 and Schoeps MK2S and MK21. Haven't heard the 8040, but I have read somewhere that its polar pattern is more like the MK41 than the MK4. Of course the plots don't bear that out, but I was wondering if anyone has experience with both the 8040 and the MK41 who can comment?

And, is no one buying the 8050??

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by sonare

From personal use I can say that the TLM193 are the closest to "omni" smoothness above 100 Hz. Size does enter the equation, however.

If that option is too large, the Senn8040 sound VERY close to the Schoeps Mk21.

The question for you is if you want more of what you already have. The overall Senn 80XX sound is a little cleaner than Schoeps.

Ebay price on TLM193 is $600-700; Senn 8040 can be had for $1100.

Rich

I can have TLm 193 quite cheap. It came to my mind even earlier. The question is: would these mics be in quality pair with Schoeps (bringing something slightly different ) or they are rather in slightly lower league (as far as details and depth is concerned ) ?

PS: Oh, I see that this mic got quite a treat for example here: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-mu...tlm-193-a.html

[John Willett]

The TLM 193 is a fine mic. and very close to the TLM 170 in character (at a much lower price) and I know several top engineers who love it.

It's not a first choice vocal mic. for many, but it is good at a lot of things and loved by several classical engineers I know.

[George Gilliam]

In my opinion, like all cardioid microphones, a pair of TLM 193 main mics can never sound as natural on a classical ensemble as A-B omnis or Blumlein ribbons, given a decent acoustical space.

However, in my experience, the TLM 193 sounds good on brass, and is much more natural than many condenser mics with high-frequency peaks. It is also a very good spot mic for both the violin section of an orchestra and on solo violin, flute, and oboe.

The TLM 193 has the best low-frequency response of any cardioid mic I've used.

[ISedlacek]

I can get Sennheiser 8040 pair for quite cheap. As a sound alternative, those LDCs look interesting too ... What about maybe Gefell M930 ?

[fifthcircle]

The M930 is a great mic, but may be a bit bright for your tastes... I use them on everything and just don't worry about sound- from woodwind spots to piano to low strings to vocals... It does have a pretty open sound and the polar pattern is not particularly accurate (probably closer to a sub-cardiod than a true cardiod and it is very good off-axis).

As much as I like subcardiod and omni mics, there are many times that they just aren't appropriate. From the things they do with image to room issues that come up, I am very happy to have the Cardiods that I own (M930, MK4, KM140/84, C42, MKH40/8040, etc...). Like all mics, they all have their plusses and minuses. I have places where I'll reach for all and places where I reach for none...

--Ben

[Corran]

Originally Posted by JEGG

For the OP: Note that the EW and DPA cardioids do have a much higher roll off than most other general purpose cardioids. Pay particular attention to reading the DPA graphs. Their "middle" or "main" roll off curve is plotted from only 0.3 meters, not the 1 meter standard employed by almost everyone else. Be sure you're looking at the one for 1 meter.

Do the Earthworks really have that much of a roll-off compared to other cardioids? I recently got a pair of SR-77s, and while I haven't used them yet, I am planning on trying them out ASAP where I normally put my Oktava 012s. I thought part of EW's thing was flat and extended frequency response, in their omnis as well as cardioids. But it doesn't matter to me too much as I usually fly my Earthworks QTC-1 omni along with the ORTF pair to give back the bass response.

[aracu]

Although not cardioid, the Royer sf24 may have the sound you are looking for, an "inner" quality. My favorite mic signature sound when it works on something.

[boojum]

I have a pair of Schoeps CMC64's. I use them when the room sucks, like almost always. In a good hall I use the DPA 4006TL's. If I need solo mics with the DPA's I then use the CMC64's, side by side.

For really bad, small, live venues I use a Schoeps MS: CMC64 + CMC68. These are the tools I have and how I use them.

YMMV

[squeegybug]

Ivo, as you know I mostly record acoustic strings and vocals in solo or small ensembles. Not always the same as your setups but often similar. I sometimes record multiple live performers, two instruments and three singers is typical. High quality small diaphragm directional mics with reliable and clean off axis response allow a nice composite of focused and blended sounds in these situations.

Over the last several years I have had M930, M300, MK21, 4051a, CU-44X, etc. small/medium condensers, and M296, MK2S, STO-2, and other omnis. The 8040 is easily my top choice from all those, that is the pair I finally kept and all the others except the Avensons are sold or returned. I just find the Sennheisers produce a very lyrical sound with interesting texture and body, yet still remain true to the sources. I am sometimes using them for lead and background vocals as well as instrumentals. They are very easy to place, in my experience. I have completely stopped looking at other SDC mics. My thanks to the folks here on Remote forum who offered the discussions and sample recordings of these excellent MKH8040 that got me interested enough to try them.

Steve

[ISedlacek]

Thank you, Steve. Based on similar feedbacks (Ben and others), I am going straight to 8040s ... with an inner assurance ... I just wonder how 8020 stand beside Schoeps MK2 or DPA 4006. Unlike 8040, they are not available here for trying

[mljung]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Thank you, Steve. Based on similar feedbacks (Ben and others), I am going straight to 8040s ... with an inner assurance ... I just wonder how 8020 stand beside Schoeps MK2 or DPA 4006. Unlike 8040, they are not available here for trying

I do too... [and what about 8020 with pressure balls..?]

Anyhow

8040 sounds very tempting! A lot of people have had so many good things to say about them, and they have been here for a while now so it can't just be the "new is better" thing that's going on.

It's allways difficult to compare omni's and cardioid's, we all know their different abilities. But it's almost like the 'general' consensus about the MKH 8000 line is: The MKH 8040's are so good and that we really don't need omni's to capture the full realistic picture of an orchestra or other demanding 'stuff'. Could this really be the case

[or what about 8020 with pressure balls - would that be the best of two worlds?!?]


Ivo,
when/if you get either of the new MKH line, please report back on your findings

Best,
Mads