Spot mic for violin in classical live performance

[LX3]

Any suggestions for spot-micing violin in a trio situation? There will be overall pickup as well of course.

It needs to be as visually discreet as possible, as the performance is being filmed.

I'm thinking of the Schoeps active tube system with appropriate capsule, positioned in a sort of "over-the-shoulder" fashion, so that most of the stand is hidden behind the perfomer. DPA have something similar, but I haven't found anywhere to rent it in the UK.

Any other options that you've found to work well?

I doubt any kind of mic attached to the instrument will be acceptable, as the instrument itself has a reputed 7-figure value. Plus it would possibly give us a more close-miked sound than we want.

Cheers folks

Paul

[nickolo]

Have you considered Earthworks mics ?I remember years ago Bruel&Keurs {prob wrong spelling} were fantastic on violins and violas.Lots of good feedback on an english pencil mic called' Hebben' or Heben !!?

[tsvisser]

New Sennheiser MKH 8000 series (8020, 8040, 8050) are modular mics, have lower self noise than the Schoeps. I know that 3 meter remote cables are in stock, but 10 meter cables are back ordered (ordered a 3m for myself this morning).

They are not quite as small as the Schoeps, but cheaper, and definitely not "big" by any means.

[LX3]

Aha, hadn't quite realised that Sennheiser were doing "active-tube" type mountings for the new MKH mics. Now I've looked at the website a bit closer... quite sweet.

The way things are looking, this is likely to be a rental rather than outright purchase, so comparative cost isn't an issue. And handily, I know someone I can "rent" the Sennheisers from (Hi John!), because I don't think many rental houses will have them.

It's more a question of, what's the most unobtrusive way to get a spot mic into a good position for a seated violinist? He mustn't bump it when he stands for the applause either

[LX3]

Originally Posted by nickolo

Have you considered Earthworks mics ?I remember years ago Bruel&Keurs {prob wrong spelling} were fantastic on violins and violas.Lots of good feedback on an english pencil mic called' Hebben' or Heben !!?

Probably the Hebden Sound mics. Close relatives of the old Calrecs. Haven't seen much feedback on it myself, so glad to know what you've heard is good.

B&K, or rather DPA, is definitely an option. Possibly the 4023.

[0VU]

If this is a 'classical' trio performing acoustically (without PA), in a half decent venue that isn't stupidly noisy or with huge constraints upon mic positioning, 'conventional' 'classical' trio music then you shouldn't need to spot anyone.

However, given all the possible ways in which that plan can fall down due to venue problems, ensemble problems, programme/genre requirements, artistic decisions or just good ol' personal preference on the part of the person paying the bill..... I'd probably go with a Schoeps extension tube system on the grounds that the usefulness of being able to choose from a huge range of capsules to suit the job in hand is hard to overestimate. The DPA compacts also are excellent and if you know that there's one that'll suit the specific job you're doing then they're a fine choice but if you need to keep your options open a little the Schoeps tubes are less hassle when it comes to changing things out.

One gig I do regularly involves a large orchestra, often with choir(s), soloists and sometimes rhythm sections, playing with full PA reinforcement in the RAH and some other (outdoor) venues. Over the last year or two we've had violin performances from (in no particular order) Joshua Bell, Nicola Benedetti, Nigel Kennedy, and Ruth Palmer. Each time we had a selection of mics from which to choose but every time we ended up with Schoeps tubes, usually with the M222 body or, occasionally, the CMC6, and either an MK4, MK21 or MK2 capsule - depending mostly upon how 'busy' the stage was and how big a problem we had with interference from other sources nearby. I share the solo miking with the PA rig - to help reduce the stage clutter - so the mic choice has to work for both of us and sometimes we end up with a tighter pattern than I would otherwise have chosen but in each case the results have been fine.

If I didn't have a known combination pre-selected, I'd likely go with the Schoeps for flexibility. Richmond Film Services have them and a good range of capsules, or if not, FX Rentals used to have one or two, or there's alway Sound Hire. If they can;t help and you don't need more than a dozen or so you could PM me and and I'm not already using everything I'll help out if I can.

[pkautzsch]

Any chance of flying a Schoeps CCM (or other compact mic) off the ceiling on its own thin cable?

[LX3]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Any chance of flying a Schoeps CCM (or other compact mic) off the ceiling on its own thin cable?

Yep, that's something I'm considering. However, we're unlikely to know soloists' positions until rehearsal in the afternoon, which may not be enough time to make it happen. There's only a limited number of points we can fly from, so I don't know how practical it's going to be.

Maybe we can fly a mic roughly into place, then drag it around on breast lines when the talent arrives. Though yet again, we're limited to where we can anchor those lines.

The other issue is, considering it's being filmed for broadcast, what's typically more distracting? A 9m long black cable hanging from the ceiling, or a discreet black "flamingo" stand on the floor?

Decisions decisions...

[jnorman]

why not just mount a dpa 4061 on the bridge of the instrument?

[LX3]

Originally Posted by jnorman

why not just mount a dpa 4061 on the bridge of the instrument?

Ah, because "the instrument" is reportedly worth something over $2,000,000



"...don't worry, we'll just gaffer the extra cable down the side of your violin..."

[Loki]

Seriously, DPA has a solution mount. The bridge mount MHS6001.

You can run the cable to the player. No need for tape on the instrument.

[LX3]

Yep, I have a 4061, and the string mount. It's cool in many situations, but for this concert I don't think it'll be acceptable... even suggesting it would probably put me in a bad light.

I was kidding about the gaffer.

[Roland]

The Schoeps are bang on the money for this job. Either the active tube or if hanging isn't a problem the active cable system is very good. This sort of job is what the Schoeps excel at, like it or not nothing else will do as well, as discreetly. Slung from above they usually become almost invisible, that's assuming that the mic is to capture the whole trio.

Regards


Roland

[LX3]

Yes, Schoeps is most definitely on the table, along with DPA.

I'm talking about spot mic options here, specifically for violin. If I fly a spot mic, it could be a game getting the positioning right so that it rejects the rest of the trio. So I feel the active tube/flamingo approach is going to be much easier to deal with in terms of positioning.

We know what we're doing for overall pickup. It's one of those belt and braces jobs, where they would like everything covered twice over, giving them lots of options at mix time.

[Plush]

Just hang a Schoeps #21 sub cardioid over the
solo position and enjoy the good sound.
It will be a wonderful wide pick-up that
will cover whereever the person stands. TV people
expect the mic to be hanging.
(the cable won't be in the picture)

Don't even ask to attach a mount.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Plush

Just hang a Schoeps #21 sub cardioid over the
solo position and enjoy the good sound.
It will be a wonderful wide pick-up that
will cover whereever the person stands. TV people
expect the mic to be hanging.
(the cable won't be in the picture)

Don't even ask to attach a mount.

What he said!

Rich

[LX3]

Thanks Plushy, I appreciate the advice. Schoeps are so in the picture now.

I'm visiting the venue again with the TV producer this week, so I'll take another look at flying options.

There's going to be a lot of stuff in the air. I think I'm going to need to make up another 150 metres or so of "flyable" mic cable!

[Svens]

Originally Posted by Plush

Just hang a Schoeps #21 sub cardioid over the
solo position and enjoy the good sound.
It will be a wonderful wide pick-up that
will cover whereever the person stands. TV people
expect the mic to be hanging.
(the cable won't be in the picture)

Don't even ask to attach a mount.

+1! And dont be afraid to give it some distance from the soloist.

[xxm]

if you watch Itzhak Perlman's videos, he always plays with a coles 4038 hanging about 1.5 meters over him... and not only in his studio work (geisha, and J.Williams scores), but as well as with the Berlin phil (Brahms & Beethoven), or during his 1990 tour in russia... I guess it isn't easy to hide :-) but it does sound great on a good violin and can be placed far away enough compared to a wide cardio for instance.

best regards,
Vincent

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by LX3

Aha, hadn't quite realised that Sennheiser were doing "active-tube" type mountings for the new MKH mics. Now I've looked at the website a bit closer... quite sweet.

The way things are looking, this is likely to be a rental rather than outright purchase, so comparative cost isn't an issue. And handily, I know someone I can "rent" the Sennheisers from (Hi John!), because I don't think many rental houses will have them.

Talk to Nigel at Richmond Film, I'm not sure if he has them yet, but he has most things.

Originally Posted by LX3

It's more a question of, what's the most unobtrusive way to get a spot mic into a good position for a seated violinist? He mustn't bump it when he stands for the applause either

This is probably best done by experimentation with the violinist concerned.

If you send me a PM and an e-mail address I can send you a pdf of the polar pattern of a violin at different frequencies if this will help with positioning the mic.