Beta 87 vs Neuman 105 vs ?

[GuitarRuss]

Hi there,

I'm looking at getting a good mic for live performances. I have a male singer who alternates between styles and voices. At times like these singers - Stevie Wonder, Curtis Mayfield, Lenny Kravitz, and Bob Marley. He is a powerhouse and can sing loud with a large range. He also jumps around on stage a lot so the mic should be tough.

Some people say the 105 is better than the 87, but is it tough? Can it handle a really loud gospel style lead? I'm looking for something under $300... we're often playing through cheaper boards so really preamp dependent mics are out. My old male singer had an 87 and it sounded way better through a typical Mackie/behringer board than the Beta 58 (which I already have).

Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[bishopthomas]

I'm not a fan of the Beta 87. I like the KMS105 but you're not going to find it for under $300. I've been using the Audix VX5 and it's a great sounding mic. I have one for sale if you're interested. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...vx5-195-a.html

[te-problematique]

I've used both and had the opportunity to play with a bunch of kms105's last weekend, whilst the 105 was really cool, i thought it was more suited to male than female vocals, the presence peak is really nice on the male voice, I thought it was perhaps a bit too bright, maybe almost sharp on female voice, the 87 is cool as well, been a while since I used one though so can't remember specifics, what about that new shure, the ksm-9 they sound really good on male voice? (haven't heard on female)

[eddierodriguez]

look out for audix and electro-voice!

shure *ucks and the kms-105 has a feedback-problem.

[huub]

I love the 105.. Lots of leakage but the leakage is way nicer sounding than from the 87..
Haven't heard the ksm9, but people I trust say it is the best sounding stage vocal mic ever..

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by eddierodriguez

look out for audix and electro-voice!

shure *ucks and the kms-105 has a feedback-problem.

I wind up playing in rooms with incompetent soundmen and terrible acoustics so avoiding feedback while still having a clear and dynamic sound is a priority. So based on that and the price, I think I will choose between the 87, Audix or another mic. Which Electro Voice mic do you think is a contender in my price range?

[ho-fi]

i love the kms 105 for male and female vocals. i use mine from jazz to metal and it works great! just cut 8k and 10k on monitor and the "feedback problem" is solved. be aware that its a hyper cardioid so monitors position is important. there's the kms104 which is cardioid pattern as well.
the shure ksm9 is a great mic too. but its quite expensive.

cheers, ho-fi

[GuitarRuss]

Someone told me that a solution to microphone feedback problems is putting the monitor mix out of phase with the mains. Is this true?

[t_chance]

Originally Posted by GuitarRuss

I wind up playing in rooms with incompetent soundmen and terrible acoustics so avoiding feedback while still having a clear and dynamic sound is a priority. So based on that and the price, I think I will choose between the 87, Audix or another mic. Which Electro Voice mic do you think is a contender in my price range?

I picked up a EV 410 condenser and the people that have used it have really taken a liking towards it. There is a 510 that has a tighter pattern too, but most of the time it has been a problem having the singer "stay on" it. and They also have a dynamic that works well, the N/D967. Try before you buy. I've picked up mine used like new for $120
With all mics, the feedback and noise problems are greatly reduced if the mic is on a stand, rather than handheld.

RE410 - Electrovoice

N/D967 - Electrovoice


disclamer
I do not work for EV (but had friends that do)

[te-problematique]

monitors out of phase with the foh, I guess this makes sense, anyone care to explain in depth? I was working on a big show and the FOH engineer had flipped the polarity on all his vocal mics and I've been wondering about an explanation for this for a while, would it have been to put them out of phase in FOH from the monitors? Cheers guys!

[Sounds Great]

I haven't used the 105, but I did own the Beta 87. I much prefer my AKG 535eb.

[Pohaku]

Do you really want a condenser on stage given the venues you've described? They can work well in good, controlled stage environments, but it seems that you don't have that. Personally, I'd go with something like an Audix OM6. Has good feedback rejection, sounds loads better than the garden variety SM58. Pretty hardy. They've become the performing mic of choice of a number of my friends who gig regularly. They tried my Audix VX-10s, AKG C535ebs, Beyer M88s and AT-4054s, among others, and settled on the OM6. The Audix VX-10 is the Audix equivalent of the KMS-105, and is a great mic (I have a handful of them), but, like the KMS-105, I don't know that I'd want it in the venues you described. If you do want one, you can find them used for less than a KMS105 - they run @$250-300 used. My 2 cents.

[Bob Bickerton]

I have the 105 and a bunch of EV RE510s. I prefer the 510 on my own voice and it has better feedback rejection It's a great mic for the price.

Bob

[Jim vanBergen]

Without any press or marketing, the Telefunken M80 is starting to make waves in small circles.

M80MIC.COM | Telefunken | USA™ - Introduces the M80 Mic

I really love using it. Worth listening to!

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Without any press or marketing, the Telefunken M80 is starting to make waves in small circles.

M80MIC.COM | Telefunken | USA™ - Introduces the M80 Mic

I really love using it. Worth listening to!

How much do they go for? I searched through a bunch of pages and couldn't find anyone selling it...

[Jim vanBergen]

"How much do they go for? I searched through a bunch of pages and couldn't find anyone selling it..."

I think list is just under $300, so street would probably be somewhere around 275-ish.
For people who want a real quality mic, this sounds similar to the high end of mics- like Neumann KMS104, at 1/3 of the cost.

You can contact alan@telefunkenusa.com and tell him you spoke to me, and that you want to hear one. if you're in NYC, I have several- but they are being demo'd right now at NBC's Today show, and since I bought them for myself, my shows get top priority.

Jim van Bergen

[Remoteness]

Jim,

How long has the M80 been out on the street?
I haven't heard much about it...
Perhaps I'm not spending enough time reading the mags lately.

[Jim vanBergen]

It's pretty fresh, I put in my order months ago and the mics JUST came in, so they're new by any standards. I started looking last night, to my surprise, none of the regular dealers I looked at have any info up- Mercenary, Vintage King, Alto Music, Banjo Mart, etc.

They are scheduled to be used on NBC's Today show tomorrow (Friday) morning for BG vox; they will be used with the black "broadcast" grill instead of the standard "shiny" grill.

JvB

[bishopthomas]

I sent an e-mail to Mercenary and got a response back recommending the Shure SM57/58 with a transformer mod http://www.mercenary.com/smmiwitatr.html instead. It also happens to be less expensive. I don't have any first-hand knowledge of either of these, just relaying the message.

[Pohaku]

Wonder if it is the same transformer in both mics?

The original announcement blurb in January for the mic indicated (at the time) that street price was anticipated to be $219.

Telefunken

[Jim vanBergen]

Well, $219 street would make it a steal in my book. I honestly don't know the cost for dealer or list, and I dont actually know what I paid. Yeah, I had a totaly emotional experience in buying this, the proof is that I have not seen my credit card statement yet or received a receipt, I just said "here's my CC, gimme five ASAP" and eventually they showed up. And I love them as much as I did the first time I used them, when the M80s I was using belonged to somebody else.

For a dynamic mic that has a touch less sensitivity than the super-sensitive condenser KMS104 with a low mass diaphagm that SOUNDS like a condenser, I think this mic hits a place that my Audixs, Shures, Sennheisers, Neumanns, Beyers, AKGs and others don't quite go. Maybe it's the TAB tranny; maybe the AKG 535 or KMS104 would sound really different with this tranny... I think it SMOKES.

What I can tell you, is that sonically and physically it blew away a lot of mics in a live environment, and sat great in a tough mix. You'd have to get one of Fletcher's mics and A/B itto know how the tranny's sound with the different diaphragms. If you are in the USA and can get one of his '57s, I'll loan you one of my M80 for your demo if you post your results on the GS forum, hows that?

I think I've been posting the wrong link, so I'll correct the former posts...but for now:

http://www.m80mic.com/

No, I'm not involved with the company. I just dig the mics!

JvB

[AB3]

audix vx5

[themaidsroom]

i have both
the kms105
blows away the shure
be well
- jack

[squeegybug]

I have had Beta 87A, KMS105, and KSM9, among others. I kept the Shures. Works better for my needs. 105 proximity was not to my liking for close male vox, and I also had stage wash issues with them. If you are using IEM then it could be a different story.

Beta 87A is relatively darker in tone than those others (when used close, as it should be for SR), although it still has a good upper register. Proximity is nice, and GBF is very good, tight pattern. I would not always recommend it for a 'powerhouse that sings loud', it will overload easier than some other mics.

KSM9 is my current favorite stage mic. Very open sound, and won't distort with loud close singers. Also doubles nicely as a studio mic, we worked through several options recently for some live group recordings and the KSM9 on vocals plus MKH8040 on instruments was the ticket.

87A is well worth the $250 or so it sells for. It will also work just dandy down to 12V if your venues' phantom power is questionable. The 105 is more particular about this, in my experience. And the 87A is indeed rugged and reliable, as are most Shure mics. Easy to replace on the road if necessary.

Really doesn't matter what any of us say though, only your sources and setups will determine how any mics work for you. And since you are looking for < $300 that only leaves the 87A from those choices anyway. FWIW I've seen Emmylou and Richard Thompson (and others) on Beta 87A several times, seems it doesn't suck for them....

Steve

[Pohaku]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Well, $219 street would make it a steal in my book. I honestly don't know the cost for dealer or list, and I dont actually know what I paid. Yeah, I had a totaly emotional experience in buying this, the proof is that I have not seen my credit card statement yet or received a receipt, I just said "here's my CC, gimme five ASAP" and eventually they showed up. And I love them as much as I did the first time I used them, when the M80s I was using belonged to somebody else.

For a dynamic mic that has a touch less sensitivity than the super-sensitive condenser KMS104 with a low mass diaphagm that SOUNDS like a condenser, I think this mic hits a place that my Audixs, Shures, Sennheisers, Neumanns, Beyers, AKGs and others don't quite go. Maybe it's the TAB tranny; maybe the AKG 535 or KMS104 would sound really different with this tranny... I think it SMOKES.

What I can tell you, is that sonically and physically it blew away a lot of mics in a live environment, and sat great in a tough mix. You'd have to get one of Fletcher's mics and A/B itto know how the tranny's sound with the different diaphragms. If you are in the USA and can get one of his '57s, I'll loan you one of my M80 for your demo if you post your results on the GS forum, hows that?

I think I've been posting the wrong link, so I'll correct the former posts...but for now:

M80MIC.COM | Telefunken | USA™ - Introduces the M80 Mic

No, I'm not involved with the company. I just dig the mics!

JvB

I just e-mailed Alan, cited you, and asked who might have them in stock. I'll post the response when I get it. I'm intrigued enough to buy one "sight unheard" as it were.

Thanks!

[bishopthomas]

Mercenary's price is $239. I would love to do an AB test and wouldn't mind buying the Mercenary 58, but my voice and the record button don't go together. I would like to test them out in a live environment, so maybe we could try to make that happen.

[Pohaku]

Allen says that no dealers currently stock the mic (although I expect they could order it) because the mic is fresh out of production. The mic is currently available direct from Telefunken for $239. I think I'll order one and give it a whirl.

Edit: Ordered one today - should be here next week. Allan says they are currently cranking out the first couple thousand of these for distribution. To date, perhaps only a 100 or so of the mics have actually been sold/distributed -- which is why virtually no one has seen them or used them.

[Pohaku]

Well, that was quick! I now have what appears to be #98 of the M-80 mic. Cute packaging (red tube made to look like a firecracker). Comes with bag, clip (looks like a Beyer style clip) and an individualized frequency graph. The chrome grill is a bit bright for my taste - I think I would have preferred black if it was/is available - but that's personal preference - YMMV. I'll probably slap a foam windscreen over it anyway.

I'll have to give it some exercise over the weekend and see how it sounds.

Thanks to Allen for such an immediate turn around on the order. Amazingthumbsupthumbsup

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by Pohaku

Well, that was quick! I now have what appears to be #98 of the M-80 mic. Cute packaging (red tube made to look like a firecracker). Comes with bag, clip (looks like a Beyer style clip) and an individualized frequency graph. The chrome grill is a bit bright for my taste - I think I would have preferred black if it was/is available - but that's personal preference - YMMV. I'll probably slap a foam windscreen over it anyway.

I'll have to give it some exercise over the weekend and see how it sounds.

Thanks to Allen for such an immediate turn around on the order. Amazingthumbsupthumbsup

Yes, do let us know more about how the mic turns out and what others think too. It sounds like it might be a great mic. I'd like to know more.

[Pohaku]

Well, having only just plugged it in to sing through to see if it was alive, I'd say it is a hotter and more present mic than the MD431 I had up on the stand.

I want to compare it to my Audix OM-6 and VX-10 that I tend to use as my vocal performing mics of choice.

More info after the weekend.