What If You Built A Live Performance Recording Club?

[FFTT]

Just brainstorming and way beyond my means, but for someone with the resources
and the right place, something like this might be cool.

What if you found a good hall, maybe 300 to 1000 seats
and set it up to not only show the bands, stage, lighting PA etc.,
but to record them live.

From the ground up designed to record live bands with an audience
or at least on a stage with both good quality audio and video.

Bar or theater format out front.

Seems like it would bring in paying bands and paying listeners
and then you work out the details on the video if they want copies
for distribution.

[Kadden Heart]

i'll incorporate with you to get an SBA loan to give it a shot.



it'd be cool though, the young bands would love that kind of thing.

[surflounge]

give me a shout, because that's EXACTLY what I've been working on for the last 4 years.
Where's your location? I'm on the central coast of California, and it is such a real done deal. Congrats. Let me know...

[FFTT]

Well I'm out here in Northern VA and poor as a church mouse, but glad to hear
someone is thinking of a similar business plan.

The coolest shows are the intimate ones where the band is right there
with the audience interacting.

Capturing that excitement live rather than in the sheltered confines of a normal studio
would also keep everyone on their toes and hopefully result in some magical moments
in music and on film.

In some other imaginary life, I was a Madison Avenue marketing guru making an easy 6 figures for my moments of greatness!

[The Byre]

'The Moorings' in Aberdeen (Scotland) does exactly this and releases CDs.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by FFTT

Well I'm out here in Northern VA and poor as a church mouse, but glad to hear
someone is thinking of a similar business plan.

The coolest shows are the intimate ones where the band is right there
with the audience interacting.

Capturing that excitement live rather than in the sheltered confines of a normal studio
would also keep everyone on their toes and hopefully result in some magical moments
in music and on film.

In some other imaginary life, I was a Madison Avenue marketing guru making an easy 6 figures for my moments of greatness!

Come down to North Carolina in about a year. I'm building a carbon neutral recording studio with room for a live studio audience (audio and video).

[bigos]

I have been thinking of doing this for years, but the reality of such a project seems impossible for me unless I can find some like minded investors/partners. Keep me updated on any plans.
bigos
Welcome to *Saraswati Hotel*!

[FFTT]

It's going to be difficult to limit how much this might cost all depending on what
caliber of musicianship you're hoping to draw into the club.

Can you bring in acts that will draw strong enough to cover basic expenses?

It would be great if you could find an old theater complete with stage and lighting
to save on some expenses, but only if the acoustics are better than what you
might end up with starting with an empty space.

You also need to borrow enough to float everything for at least 2 years
just to even stand a chance of survival.

[henryrobinett]

I thought about this several years ago, but my idea incorporated an existing club. Get them in on it. The last thing I wanted was to be responsible for a venue. That'd kill me financially and otherwise - insurance alone. But to add it as a marketing ploy to an existing venue, might attract the attention of club owners.

Maybe only have certain nights -- two nights a week, as recording nights. Patrons can pay a little extra for a live CD, split between band/engineer. CD would be mailed.

It's fraught with complication though. Rights of the music. If the band pays to play, significantly, you'd greatly limit, perhaps, the bands who'd want to/could do it. If the patrons can simply pay for the cost of a CD to be mailed to them, the band might be horrified to have a lot of people having shitty performances of them floating around.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

It's fraught with complication though. Rights of the music. If the band pays to play, significantly, you'd greatly limit, perhaps, the bands who'd want to/could do it. If the patrons can simply pay for the cost of a CD to be mailed to them, the band might be horrified to have a lot of people having shitty performances of them floating around.

In my plan it's not a half-way thing. It's all-in, serious, intentional. And yes, rights are going to be "interesting". But I believe that making the recording an authentic memento of the performance, and bringing in only those whose performances will be worthy of archiving, we can limit our problems to just the impossible, rather than also the ridiculous.

[FFTT]

You might have some fun with post production if the group's producer and label
want to get in on making the best of the live event.

You could also look for sponsors from beer distributors and from any backline gear provided.

[henryrobinett]

I suppose the next thing is to seriously survey. How many bands are there in the area who are accomplished enough playing live would be willing? Are there enough that would keep a venture afloat financially? Is there enough interest to draw state-wide and/or nationally?

I've seen businesses like this sink like a rock because the right questions haven't been surveyed. Is it viable?

[FFTT]

It may be fruitful to survey established area producers and labels to get their input.

[staudio]

It is a great idea to record music live, but keep in mind that if a band wants a recording of their show they can hire a remote recording outfit at any venue they like. Some venues force bands to use the house facilities if they want a AV recording but that can be too expensive for a lot of groups. Depending on the scale of this thing it should be treated more as two separate businesses, a musical venue, and a recording studio attached to the venue that can make a profit on its own without relying on shows getting booked.

Take a look at Jazz at Lincoln Center, there are a few great recording studios owned by XM Productions/ Effanel Music in the building along with the Jazz concert halls and they do all the archival recording for the venues. They are separate business entities though and they just happen to have an amazing partnership in this building. XM Productions does get business of its own and has live rooms galore for recording without using the venues.

Good Luck.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by staudio

Take a look at Jazz at Lincoln Center, there are a few great recording studios owned by XM Productions/ Effanel Music in the building along with the Jazz concert halls and they do all the archival recording for the venues. They are separate business entities though and they just happen to have an amazing partnership in this building. XM Productions does get business of its own and has live rooms galore for recording without using the venues.

Indeed, JALC (Jazz at Lincoln Center) was my inspiration. But there are some significant differences: JALC is a venue first and a recording facility second, and their large hall has 1200 seats that need to be filled. Mine is a recording facility first, but one that could easily handle a few dozen really interested participants.

[warhead]

I think this could be done, and would love to see something like this become popular...! If it was people witnessing the recording process, of course the bands would have to be GOOD. I wouldn't pay money to sit around watching a bunch of hacks trying to fix each take as they go.

Or is the idea live performance, straight to recorder, mixed later?

Because that can happen at any gig.

War

[muziekschuur]

You'll find out people will not trust you and that it will take a long long way before people do.

It's hard to do so. Your income has to come out of the bar. Not out of the cd's. So you will focus on that bar. And sound will just..... be the sound as you will not find the time you need to focus on mixing. And if you do..... the bar will go broke because of poor management.....

That's life....


Muziekschuur

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by muziekschuur

You'll find out people will not trust you and that it will take a long long way before people do.

It's hard to do so. Your income has to come out of the bar. Not out of the cd's.

You've lost me. I don't see how any musician would trust anybody whose focus is on the bar. The clients I intend to attract are more interested in hearing great music than getting drunk. Plenty of cheaper places/ways to get drunk than in a $2000/day recording studio.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by Clueless

You've lost me. I don't see how any musician would trust anybody whose focus is on the bar. The clients I intend to attract are more interested in hearing great music than getting drunk. Plenty of cheaper places/ways to get drunk than in a $2000/day recording studio.

Well those would be a lot of professional musicians who make their income from playing in bars and clubs, at least in part. That's the nature of the beast. I'm worried now that you might be being naive about music and the business.

The fact of the matter is I've never seen a serious music venue succeed that doesn't sell alcohol. Obviously big concert halls are the exception. It's a sad state of affairs. I don't drink and I prefer playing for people who aren't drunk. But I'm sorry to say that your statement sounds ill informed.

I wish you all the best, but I suggest you seriously survey and research this venture before you jump in with both feet.

But if it's primarily a recording studio, good. They always make a ton of money!

[shaneoconnor]

i think that as touring costs increase (gas/ electricity costs) we will se a new type of venue pop up that is more oriented toward a backline mentality. it will be more cost effective for the artist, therefore draw artists who are spending money on promotion as opposed to gas.

likewise, this may involve a recording element to these new venues. something that could be the new venture or "starting point" for this flock of berklee/ai/ full sail engineers with no where to turn.

the lucky ones will be the guys that start to build this kind of studio in the suburns, very close to the city but not in an area that is so expensive that it is impossible to sustain.

with rent reasonable:
recording studio
venue
mid sized bar
housing for artists while on tour.

could be an awesome venture.

the best bet would be to purchase a McMansion kind of thing that was forclosed on.

this is the new large studio environment

[FFTT]

The whole idea is to capture that extra energy of a live performance.

It also looks to the future where audio and video together is a more marketable
medium with today's technology as long as the audio quality doesn't suffer.

[emdub123]

Originally Posted by FFTT

What if you found a good hall, maybe 300 to 1000 seats and set it up to not only show the bands, stage, lighting PA etc.,
but to record them live.

Bar or theater format out front.

Despite your "angle" with the recording bit, I don't see where this idea is anything more than a live music venue. A nightclub. A bar. A theater.

One of the things that gets business owners into trouble is not understanding the nature of their work. Most times this means some sort of delusion/denial about being a "salesman" or "saleswoman".

Example: A friend of our family bought a microbrewery about 10 years ago. He was an engineer and loved the brewing process, but didn't like going to bars/restaurants/liquor stores and persuading them to carry his product. What he failed to understand (until it was too late) was that he wasn't in the beer brewing business, he was in the beer selling business. You can focus on operational efficiency and improvements to the brewing process, but at the end of the day it all hinges on whether you can get the beer sold.

You can focus all you want on "recording bands" etc, but at the end of the day, you're really just selling liquor, beer and wine...

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by emdub123

Despite your "angle" with the recording bit, I don't see where this idea is anything more than a live music venue. A nightclub. A bar. A theater.

One of the things that gets business owners into trouble is not understanding the nature of their work. Most times this means some sort of delusion/denial about being a "salesman" or "saleswoman".

Example: A friend of our family bought a microbrewery about 10 years ago. He was an engineer and loved the brewing process, but didn't like going to bars/restaurants/liquor stores and persuading them to carry his product. What he failed to understand (until it was too late) was that he wasn't in the beer brewing business, he was in the beer selling business. You can focus on operational efficiency and improvements to the brewing process, but at the end of the day it all hinges on whether you can get the beer sold.

You can focus all you want on "recording bands" etc, but at the end of the day, you're really just selling liquor, beer and wine...

That's another angle of what I was trying to say.

[djwayne]

I wanted to do recordings of live concerts years ago, and I contacted a venue, and the venue vice president told me to forget about it, as most artists didn't want their performance recorded, and it would also cause problems with their contracts with their record companies. He was adamantly against it.

Another bar/club here in Cleveland used to do this about 20 some years ago, they had an extra angle, they broadcasted on the radio, live every Wednesday morning at 11:00 and called it the "Coffebreak Concert." They had a one hour show of many local and up and coming talent play there. Many of the concerts were recorded. This went on for years, but the place burnt down many years ago, and the new club doesn't have those concerts anymore.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by djwayne

I wanted to do recordings of live concerts years ago, and I contacted a venue, and the venue vice president told me to forget about it, as most artists didn't want their performance recorded, and it would also cause problems with their contracts with their record companies. He was adamantly against it.

I'm sure the venue VP had a good point then, but are things different now? How many more artists are less beholden to record companies because (1) the record companies are offering so much less they cannot enslave the talent, (2) home studios have given artists an alternative that really didn't exist 20 years ago, (3) some of the artists who were locked out 20 years ago might still have their good name, but be free from those contracts.

I agree that its a bad situation when artists are forced to live a life of artificial scarcity so that record labels can support selling $16.99 CDs in record stores. As if!

Another bar/club here in Cleveland used to do this about 20 some years ago, they had an extra angle, they broadcasted on the radio, live every Wednesday morning at 11:00 and called it the "Coffebreak Concert." They had a one hour show of many local and up and coming talent play there. Many of the concerts were recorded. This went on for years, but the place burnt down many years ago, and the new club doesn't have those concerts anymore.

That perhaps more a question of owner motivation/competence than a question of whether it is actually viable.

The model I'm planning to run is quite different than many of the suggestions here, which either means I'll find success with an approach that hasn't been tried, or I'll fail, making new mistakes all the way. We'll see!

[djwayne]

The main point the VP was making was most big name artists don't want their live performances recorded. Many are NOT fans of live recordings.

If you think all musicians are buddy buddy, then you've got some things to learn. Many are not and view other musicians as competition. Lots of rivalry there.

[emdub123]

Originally Posted by Clueless

The model I'm planning to run is quite different than many of the suggestions here, which either means I'll find success with an approach that hasn't been tried, or I'll fail, making new mistakes all the way. We'll see!

Your comments really piqued my interest and I took the time to look at your construction thread and your website. The facility looks extremely well thought out and also very exciting.

You mention lots of different capabilities that the facility will have, but nothing that really gives a clear indication of your business model. Can you tell us more about this? Who is your customer? There are so many different combinations of products and services that can be provided by a facility like this, I'd really like to hear you talk more about your vision, if you're willing???

[Clueless]

I'm a Gemini, which means I cannot do anything without looking at things from both sides.

The Manifold Recording side is a straight-ahead high-end, full-size recording studio. In today's climate, I know that sounds like a recipe for instant failure, but I think it makes no sense to have a recording studio and not offer to rent it for the right clients. And I have some anecdotal evidence that in my area (Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill), there may in fact now be room for such a facility, saving people the travel to Atlanta, Nashville, or New York.

The Miraverse side is an experience. We have a very strong Creative Class here (Kipplingers just listed Raleigh as the #2 city to live and work in, primarily because of that creative class), and these guys cannot get enough of what the area already has to offer: the top two performance venues (multiple stages at RBC Center in Raleigh and Memorial Hall in Chapel Hill) are consistently sold out. Tables at noteworthy restaurants are still in very high demand. Many places offer "Chef for a Day" packages for $1000 and up (you pay $1000 to work in the kitchen!). Don't get me started on what you can pay for a tour of the many golf courses in the area (and yes, Pinehurst #2 is in the area). We have lots of people with lots of money who have bought all the things they can fit in their houses, and they are now looking for experiences. Sure, they can spend $50,000 to book a nice band for their Sweet 16 party, but the sound is going to suck and the audience is not going to be into the music--they're going to be getting sloppy at the bar.

The idea of the Miraverse is that people who want an authentic studio experience will be able (with the help of the studio) to find artists who are not (or no longer) locked into a label deal that prohibs them from performing and/or recording. We will arrange a package that can include education and orientation, social time with the artists, recording sessions of live and/or studio sessions, mixing, and production. We can pay artists 2x-3x what they might normally get for a corporate gig, an audience that will give them 10x-100x more attention, and top-quality masters from which they can burn CDs they can sell from their own website. We can charge as little as what people pay for VIP tickets to the circus (Cirque du Soleil) and give people a 1:1 experience on both sides of the glass unlike anything possible in a 1000 seat venue (or even a 100 seat venue). And we can send them home with private-label CDs/DVDs that serve both as authentic mementos of their studio experience as well as gifts they can give to their friends, much as they would give bottles of wines they "produced" using on-line, whole-barrel vinyard services so popular now ($10,000 a barrel, btw).

I think that Firehouse12 can do something like this, as can Jazz at Lincoln Center, although both seem more focused on bringing in artists and letting the audience by tickets to the event. We're not selling tickets. We're a facility for productions, and we assist co-producers realize their vision of creating and realizing a production.

[shaneoconnor]

maybe starting with a mobile recording rig that really rocks would be a good starting point.

build up a client list with lots of live recordings, and maybe associate this with some blogs/ radio stations (we have a radio station that does this kind of thing in boston).

maybe a small label would be into doing split live records with artists who tour together frequently.

pick a pretty awesome studio in town to use as your exclusive mix room for these projects. then, as things pick up, you might be able to go in with them on your new venture. Maybe a building that is adjacent to said studio.

or maybe you could get a video company to go in with you on a building, to buffer the intitial cost.

yeah, there are huge risks, but i think that it totally could work.

one strange thing, is that a lot of responses acted as if this would be a venue, that happened to be a recording studio (so that the revenue would come from bar sales)

i see it as a recording studio, that happens to sell alcohol. the one snafu possibly being that the liquor license might be an issue. maybe a temp license could happen.

if the venue "looked" really nice, it might be a great place to hold other events, such as small conferences and the whatnot (this stuff is out there, you just have to look)

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by shaneoconnor

one strange thing, is that a lot of responses acted as if this would be a venue, that happened to be a recording studio (so that the revenue would come from bar sales)

It is well-proven that a popular club selling booze can make a lot of money--so much so that one could make claims that the microphones, consoles, and recording devices make it a recording studio. More power to them.

i see it as a recording studio, that happens to sell alcohol. the one snafu possibly being that the liquor license might be an issue. maybe a temp license could happen.

Do you see party animals taking drinks into a control room that has $50,000 monitors, a $350,000 console, and god knows what in terms of vintage outboard gear? I don't. Moreover, if the goal really were recording, you'd want your engineers and producers sober, not drunk.