Recording grand piano with Schoeps MK21s......

[achabloop5080]

Hi guys,
my question is about one of the most demanding acoustic instrument for the recording engineer: classical grand piano.
I'm a pianist and I wanted to record my live recitals, so I began with Rode NT4, then upgraded to Neumann KM183s and finally to Schoeps CMC5 with MK21 stereo matched (I choose MK21 over MK2 because of non stellar acoustic venues where I play).
I use a Traveler as preamp (I also have a Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro) and A/D converter, recording at 96 Khz/24 bit.
So far I must say I'm not completely satisfied with my MK21 configuration.
Probably it's my fault as I'm not an engineer, but while I can hear with Schoeps so much more detail in the sound, the recording result is very bi-dimensional and with poor dynamics. Very definite but sterile and with a sort of veiled sound on certain frequencies.
I know MK21s have very good reputation on this forum also as piano mics, but how do you guys position them?
I tried ORTF, NOS and A/B 1.5/3m from the piano and 1.5/2m high.
Any experience or suggestion to improve my recordings?
Many thanks

[John Willett]

The Neumann KM 183 actually work very well with grand piano - I have just recorded four albums with the KM 183-D.

But - as the 183 is a farfield omni and I had them only a couple of metres from the piano they sounded rather bright on-axis. I twisted them so they were vertical and it worked perfectly.

Otherwise my piano favourites are the MKH 20 and the new MKH 8020.

I have used the 20 for the last 20 years and the 8020 (which I will use for the next recording) will be with me in a few weeks.

I normally have the omnis 17 - 20cm apart - but the actual positioning will depend on the room, the piano and the music and can vary quite widely - there is no hard and fast rule, you put them where your ears tell you is best.

Oh - piano recording is what I do most.

[Jason West]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I normally have the omnis 17 - 20mm apart

From your pic, I'm guessing you meant 17-20cm.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Jason West

From your pic, I'm guessing you meant 17-20cm.

Yes

Now corrected in the original - thanks.

[Corran]

Try them just inside the crook and midway between the strings and the open lid, and in ORTF aimed at the top and low strings respectively.

Despite what many people say (that you MUST be several feet away from the piano) you might be pleasantly surprised. Can't hurt to try.

Oh yeah there are several samples of this technique on my website below.

[mosrite]

Probably it's my fault as I'm not an engineer, but while I can hear with Schoeps so much more detail in the sound, the recording result is very bi-dimensional and with poor dynamics. Very definite but sterile and with a sort of veiled sound on certain frequencies.

Yes it is certainly not the fault of the MK21's

The rest of your chain does not do these mics justice. And if the acoustic is no good then you will hear that more so than with the previous mics that you used.

In fact if I knew that most of my recordings would be takng place in poor acoustics I would certainly never opt for an MK21. To me the MK21 is far more omni than directional in that respect, it takes no prisoners in terms of its portrayel of the room AS WELL as the source/instrument.

[fafalio]

to know which capsule to choose and as positioning the mic is fundamental.
but, on the other hand, to use schoeps with motu converters and overall with inside pre is a suicide.
you have to buy a decent preamp.
your recording quality will improve very much.
you have to consider that the pre inside your motu or mixer will be 5 euros

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Corran

Try them just inside the crook and midway between the strings and the open lid, and in ORTF aimed at the top and low strings respectively.

Despite what many people say (that you MUST be several feet away from the piano) you might be pleasantly surprised. Can't hurt to try.

Oh yeah there are several samples of this technique on my website below.

IME,

Depending on the instrument, this often creates a 'boxy' sound to my ears: I've tried over and over with various positions in this spot, and the only time it has worked was with the lid removed. There often seems to be comb-filtering from the lid, and/or some resonance issues when micing in this area.

Tho I've seen many a piano recorded this way, and often with stellar results (Keith Jarrett comes to mind!) it has never worked for me and the piano's I've recorded.

My best results are similar to John Willett's example, or even sometimes above the piano player's head (and forward a touch), aiming beyond the hammers to the harp and soundboard - this is the piano player's perspective, and they often agree with it being what they perfer to hear. That said, I'm rarely satisfied with my results recording this instrument - I find piano THE most difficult instrument to record well, or at least the way I want to hear it...

Lastly, the AEA R-88 can capture piano beautifully, tho is limited due to it's fixed ribbon position - otherwise, either using Blumlein or (pseudo) M/S is absolutely stunning: beautiful imaging and round texture - esp. good if you're tracking a bright piano. Once the position is right, it is one of my current faves for a rich piano tone. (NOTE - must have a pre with tons of gain, and absolutely SILENT!!!)

Love threads like this - makes me want to record more piano!

[MBishopSFX]

Originally Posted by achabloop5080

Hi guys,
my question is about one of the most demanding acoustic instrument for the recording engineer: classical grand piano.
I'm a pianist and I wanted to record my live recitals, so I began with Rode NT4, then upgraded to Neumann KM183s and finally to Schoeps CMC5 with MK21 stereo matched (I choose MK21 over MK2 because of non stellar acoustic venues where I play).
I use a Traveler as preamp (I also have a Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro) and A/D converter, recording at 96 Khz/24 bit.

The Schoeps mics are beyond the capabilities of the rest of your recording chain. It's like viewing a beautiful painting through dirty sunglasses. Make the preamp/recorder more equal to the quality of the Schoeps mics and you will see a big improvement. There's no need to change the microphones as the MK-21s are great mics for the job. A Korg MR-1000 with the MK-21s would improve your recordings dramatically. ORTF spacing, about 2 meters above the floor and at least 1-2 meters out from the piano (lid at full stick) should give a good starting place.

.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

IME,

Depending on the instrument, this often creates a 'boxy' sound to my ears: I've tried over and over with various positions in this spot, and the only time it has worked was with the lid removed. There often seems to be comb-filtering from the lid, and/or some resonance issues when micing in this area.

Tho I've seen many a piano recorded this way, and often with stellar results (Keith Jarrett comes to mind!) it has never worked for me and the piano's I've recorded.

I actually like to add a little ambience with an omni pair or sometimes a single ribbon in the first row to get that slightly more "open" sound. However, most of what I've done this way has worked great. It might simply have been the fact that I was recording a real nice Steinway. Also, I've never noticed problems from the lid. I usually aim down into the instrument so I don't think the reflections have affected much.

[achabloop5080]

Thank you guys for your very interesting suggestions.
John I'll try your KM 183 positioning very soon and eventually I'll post some audio clips to discuss.
Bryan I have no preconcepts on miking: I also think that in most case miking inside the piano gives best result (in non strictly classical music), but I'll try as soon as possible your positioning.
And yes, mosrite and fafalio and Michael, I'm aware that my recording chain is not at the same level as my Schoeps, but Millennia is not cheap :-)))
In the future probably I'll invest in some high quality dual channel pre and A/D converter, in the meantime I'll experiment with my actual equipment.

[Svens]

MK 21's 2 feet from the piano, large omni (DPA 4006) AB 15 feet away from the piano usually works great. Get better preamps if you have the budget, and things should get better. I usually use Raindirk (in the console), Focusrite Red or Millennia preamps, whatever is there.

[jerryfreak]

i highly recommend checking out schoeps new interactive page:

Schoeps Microphone Showroom

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by jerryfreak

Schoeps Microphone Showroom

Wow, very slick and a huge step up from their previous website!

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

Wow, very slick and a huge step up from their previous website!

<cynic hat on>
They have to justify the recent price hike somehow. Maybe it was to pay the web developer.
</cynic hat off>

Yes, its a classy demo alright.