The chance to enter the game

[Jan1973]

Hello,

here's the situation:

We have a local orchestra of semi-pro's. They conduct about 20 concerts a year, but the players all have dayjobs as well. Local public radio records about 4 to 5 concerts per year and broadcasts them state-wide.

I created my side business as a web developer first, with the plan to expand to a recording studio and photo work later as project´opportunities show up. I'm classically trained (I play clarinet, guitar, and keys reasonably).

I approached the orchestra and asked them whether they'd like to have their other concerts recorded as well. I offered a test recording at one of their rehearsal sessions in the hall where they play the concerts.

They agreed.

I do have some equipment at home, but I have to invest some as well to get the job I guess. I have a laptop, Cubase 4.1, an EMU 0404 Interface (the most mobile interface I have) and two mics (SM57 and SP C1).

If I'd knwo I'd get the job I'd probably invest in 3 stereo pairs of mics, KM184, SAP C4, and Oktava 012. I'd probably also buy 8 channels of decent preamps and a nice converter (maybe a combined solution). Plus maybe a Korg mobile 2 channel recorder.

But till then I have to live with less than that. And actually, I'd be happy if 2 channels prove to be enough for recording the orchestra.

So, my idea is to buy just the set of Oktava mics (omni and cardioid capsules) and run them into my EMU 0404 interface. Record into Cubase (maybe Wavelab Light, which shipped with the EMU), master in Cubase or Wavelab Light.

Do you think I'd get a good enough recording with this setup to get the job to record a few of the concerts? I asked for about 240 Euros net per concert (10 hours a 24 Euros).

How would you record the orchestra? Use the omni capsules and put the mics about 30 feet apart? Or use the cardioids in a X stereo configuration? Maybe go for the SP C4 set instead and use the included stereo spacer?

I'd be happy to get comments, even though this site focuses on gear. It could be the ticket into the game I love for me.

Thanks in advance,

Jan.

[John Willett]

If I was recording such a concert I would do it with either an ORTF pair of MKH 8040 or an MS pair of MKH 30/40.

If the room could take it, I would also consider a Jecklin Disk with a pair of MKH 8020.

I don't trust computers on location and would use a dedicated recorder. Nagra LB if you have the money - but Fostex FR-2 and Tascam HD-P2 are affordable. Fostex FR-2LE is cheaper, but I would not go lower than this.

I would stick with simple stereo without spot mics and let the orchestra balance themselves - and they *should* be balanced OK as it's a public concert.

I hope this helps.

[ghellquist]

Hi Jan,
quick takes from an amateur.

In my experience, for a two channel recording, ORTF is the safest bet. I often travel with a Schoeps ORTF setup and a Sound Devices 722. Two mics, carefully placed in the room, often gives a quite nice result.

There are however one specific problem in my experience with ORTF setups, compared to omni setups. The problem is that it might exaggerate the volume of the brass instruments. If the brass section happens to be a bit "edgy" this will be even more heard when using ORTF micing. Much less so with an omni setting. I guess there is an explanation.

I have not used the Octava mics but other people describe them as quite useable. You might possibly in the end preferr other mics, but as a starter they should work.

If you want to go omni capsules instead, I believe 30 feet to be totally out of my experience. Generally I end up more like 30 inches. Your choice though.

Regardless, be sure to listen carefully in the hall and carefully place the mics.

I have no problem running a laptop on location. Carefully testing things at home first, running uninterrupted for hours without problems.

Cubase is definitely not my favourite for this kind of work though. I suggest you look at another program there in the future. Samplitude is my suggestion, burning CD-s directly from the project will save lot of work.

Gunnar

[joelpatterson]

A pair of Oktava 012's in ORTF, about three feet over the conductor's head and about three feet back, you can't really go wrong. Do whatever you need to do to insure your computer won't crash/glitch/take a lunch break during the show. Figure that you'll probably do a little post-surgical EQing to sweeten it all up.

If the hall's good, if the players hit all their marks, you could be waltzing into a permanent gig. Good luck!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

Samplitude is my suggestion, burning CD-s directly from the project will save lot of work.

I agree here - I had Samplitude and then upgraded to Sequoia, it's big brother.

If you have to stick with Steinberg, Wavelab6 (full version) is OK and liked by a few classical recordists I know. I have it myself, but found working with Samplitude / Sequoia better for me.

[ghellquist]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

... in ORTF, about three feet over the conductor's head and about three feet back,

Hmm. Not always where I would put an ORTF pair. It could be the perfect spot, but it could also be too close. Depends on where the conductor stands, the orchestra and the hall.

Generally I find that as seen from the mic position, the players should be within about 90 degrees when running ORTF in order to not get odd stereo effects. Odd effects may be where suddenly an instrument leaps around in the stereo positioning, perhaps even going hard left to hard right. The solution can be to back off a bit from the orchestra. The mic might end up several meter behind the conductor. Typically then a few rows into the audience. And then you need permissing to set the mic there and a high rising stand, or the hardware to fly the mic there. All this is much easier if tested well in advance.

One specific thing to watch out for is when there are soloists. They often end up a little in front (as seen from audience) of the conductor and often to the left (or right, depending on instrument). Generally we want the soloist "towards the middle" and hence the single stereo setup would be moved a little. Perhaps not the full way, but at least a bit.

Ooh, there are soo many funny things to work out in a stereo micing setup. I really love that kind of challenges.

Gunnar

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

Ooh, there are soo many funny things to work out in a stereo micing setup. I really love that kind of challenges.

This is what makes it fun.

[Corran]

ORTF is great. Except you lose a ton of the bass frequencies. I solve this with one or two omnis in conjunction with the ORTF pair.

Depending on the repertoire, you could be okay with just the ORTF pair. If it's Haydn or Vivaldi, the bass frequencies aren't that important (the recording should be "light" and "airy" more than "bombastic"). However, if you've got Beethoven or Tchaikovsky or any Romantic-era music, the "character" of the music isn't going to be there.

I don't normally mic as close as joel (usually due to constraints by the orchestra though, or something in the way like a piano concerto!), but maybe he can chime in if that setup enhances the bass output. Basically since the standard cardoid mic rolls off the low frequencies by the distance, it might suffice to just be closer.

On the other hand, spaced omnis might be too reverberant. I can not ever use spaced omnis in the hall I record at most frequently due to this problem.

[Corran]

A little more info I just thought of:

I have a pair of Oktava 012s and they are fantastic, get them first. The newer models are better than the older ones, so be careful. If you do decide to get some omnis to "supplement" I highly recommend a pair of Naiant X-Q mics (http://naiant.com/studiostore/microphones.html). They are only $32 each (!) but really nice. I got some just as an experiment and was blown away.

As for Cubase or whatever, I personally suggest Reaper (REAPER | About) for a rock-solid and free program. Well it's only free for non-commercial work but you can try it out and get it afterward if you like it. I've recorded several very important orchestra concerts with it to great success.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Corran

...it's only free for non-commercial work but...

How does... how exactly does that work? An 'honor system' among thieves?


I'd also (in addition to the ORFT over the conductor's head) go with the spaced pair of omni's out to the sides to ensure a heaping helping of bass response, of course this all depends on the characteristics of the hall in question and really only trial and error will tell the tale. As a place to start, though, the ORTF hearing what the conductor is hearing, you could do far worse.


'Mics in the first row'... hoo boy....

[Corran]

Yes, exactly, the honor system

Mics in the first row is exactly what I have to do 99% of the time. The orchestra I record often though is broadcast on local channels so mics in the sight-line are troublesome already (and I can't fly them due to safety concerns on the catwalk). So...you do what you can!

[joelpatterson]

I hear that. Even though I try and argue, "Who cares about the people in the hall? Don't you unnerstand? The CD of the show that will last for a thousand years... that's what matters!"

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

"Who cares about the people in the hall? Don't you understand? The CD of the show that will last for a thousand years... that's what matters!"

I must remember that argument when the concert organiser tells me to move the mics.

[Corran]

Heh, I have to hide before the concert starts or else the guy who directs the TV cameras yells at me to move the mics. So I just hide in the back and don't come on stage.

[joelpatterson]

This is a huge issue, all 'round. I'm kind of hardcore about it. I didn't start out that way-- I was Mr. Agreeability and Tear My Hair Out Later-man. A couple of things happened a few times, and now I have it explicitly from the music director of the show-- who's paying good American greenbacks for this, damnation!-- that I'm going to need to put microphones in everyone's face.

If someone has a problem with that-- it's their problem.

[Jan1973]

Hello,

thanks, this thread has been a lot of help so far already.

From what I know about the hall, having an OTRF setup above the conductor is probably not going to happen. I'm not sure whether I can hang mics from the ceiling, but I doubt it.

I guess the two options I'll have are very widely spaced omnis or mics in whatever setup close to the front row or in the front row, which probably rules out omnis.

I thought the spaced omni approach would be the first thing to try. It doesn't get too much appretiation here though it seems.

Also, if I try to setup 4 mics (OTRF plus spaced omnis), what would be a good (standalone, maybe plus extra pres) recorder for recording four channels?

Right now I'm thinking a pair of Oktava 012s, because I can change the capsules easily to try out different setups plus maybe a Tascam or Korg portable recorder. Its not going to break the bank that way. But is it going to give me enough in terms of recording quality? Any experience with the recorders?

Thanks a lot for all the answers.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Jan1973

... enough in terms of recording quality? ....

That's a very elastic phrase... to have your two 012's off to either side, out of everyone's way, going into SOME kind, ANY kind of digital recorder, will sound perfectly fine, awesomely fine-- as long as you maintain levels that don't top out and distort. (Which is why you find me always running through safety compressor/limiters.)

The reality is, you're not competing against various good/better/best scenarios, you are doing the one and only recording of the show. If all you had was two SM57's and a 4 track cassette, well then yeah, the results might be pretty "this is okay, right, Mom?"

When I started out, I had a Porta-Dat and two CAD E-100's, and I learned that all it took was getting the mics somewhat near the orchestra and remembering to hit "record" before the thing started. Oh, wait-- the MOST important thing was showing up way ahead of time and being enthusiastic and getting into the spirit of the affair-- classical people can be staid and serious, but I've always found a wicked sense of humor lurking just under the surface. If they feel like the performance went well, they'll eat up the recording-- you've got lots and lots of leeway, "quality" wise.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

When I started out, I had a Porta-Dat and two CAD E-100's

When I started I had a Tandberg open-reel and a pair of Beyer M67N.

Later upgraded to a Teac A7300-2T and a pair of Calrec 2050.

Now...........................

[Corran]

I use the Korg D888 - it's an 8-channel recorder with pretty darn good pres built into it. There are some flaws: The hard drive creates some very low frequency noise on all channels, but you can EQ it out. Also, it creates an "undo" file after every recording. When you press record, and then stop, it says "working" until finished. The FIRST time you do this in a new song, it's fine and only takes a few seconds. The second and every other time it takes 15-30 MINUTES. So don't record more than one take in a song file. Just start new ones or let it run the whole show. It's fairly stable though I've had it crash once or twice...but it's also significantly cheaper ($600-$700) so you know.... Also, don't take it outside. It WILL crash due to humidity or something. Every time I take it outside it's a no-go.

Also, I'm not sure why you want very wide spaced omnis. The A-B recording technique is not meant to be spaced more than a few feet as I understand. If you have them spread 30-40 feet or something I don't think you'll be too happy with the result.

[Jan1973]

> Also, I'm not sure why you want very wide spaced omnis.

This might be the only option (widely spaced mics) I have to not interfere with the audience's field of vision. I have to clearify with the responsible people.

In this case, right now I'm thinking two pairs of Oktavas, one omni one cardioid, both placed out of the line of vision left and right between the audience and orchestra. Record 2 channels through an API A2D, which clocks the EMU 0404 and feeds its S/PDIF in. Record the other 2 channels through the A2D clocked EMU 0404 and record 4 channels into Cubase (which I happen to own) or Wavelab (which I could pick up at a discount as a Cubase owner).

Mix to taste back in the studio using as few plugins as possible.

This solution would cost about 2200 Euros (plus another 300 for Wavelab), which is about the limit. The same setup could be used to have one pair of OTRF and a spaced omni pair.

Using "better" mics would limit me to one stereo pair and the preamp/converter I already own (EMU 0404), which I think is the worse solution.

Does that sound reasonable? I guess, Joel would agree :-)

[Corran]

Ah yes okay I understand. Unfortunate but oh well.

You can't go wrong starting out with 2 pairs of 012s. I am longing for another pair myself (and those omni caps!).

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Jan1973

Does that sound reasonable?

More than reasonable, you sound like King Solomon himself.

Also, don't worry about limiting yourself in the post production to as little as possible... keep in mind that the "impact" that the final mix makes is the only thing that matters, and howsoever you get there... that can be your little secret. All's fair in love, war and concert recording.

[Jan1973]

Hi folks,

it is finally time, and today I tested my new pair of Oktava 012 mics in a church on a double choir and an orchestra performing Heinrich Schütz's Op. 7.

I liked the overall quality of the test recordings very much, although I had one problem I wasn't able to get rid of: comb filtering. I think it's related to the room and there's not much I can o about it.

On the other hand, I'm pretty much restricted to put the mics into the corners of the room behind the priest, where the orchestra and choirs also are. When I record from the chruch main hall, the filtering is much better, although reverb gets pretty heavy, and the stereo image is pretty much lost.

What would you prefer, comb filtering in very calm passages, or exaustive reverb and no stereo image?

Is there anything I can do against the comb filtering? I'm using the Oktavas with the kidney capsule, the set with the three capsules wasn't available on short notive unfortunately.

Tomorrow will be the actual recording, and I can live very well with the results, especially considering the budget I spent (Oktavas into my EMU 0404). Anway, if there's something I can improve, I'd be happy to find out...

Cheers, Jan.

P.S.: I'll put a sample to my website once I did the real recording.

[joelpatterson]

Exhaustive reverb and no stereo image sounds worst whatever you're comparing it to.

It might be that you could move the mic stands a few feet either way and take care of the comb filtering problem? Are they too close to a wall, or something?

[BLP]

I'm sorry, but I just can't hold out any longer. There is only one real solution: position the mics in a better location. If the clients/event organizers don't like the aesthetics of the mic stands "in their sight lines", you might want to call it a day. After all, I'm more than happy to give a client what they want, but I've found that, more often than not one particular issue arises: the client conveniently "forgets" that they limited your mic placement and then wonders why the recording didn't turn out well. This has happened to me more times than I'd like to think about...

But, for something less to assuage my conscience and more to help with your less-than-ideal situation, you could try using diffusion balls (or APEs, or Kugels, or whatever name a company gives them). Getting too close to boundary surfaces is never a stellar idea (unless you're doing the faux PZM thing), but if you place the omnis back in the hall, you could create a greater high frequency directionality and somewhat minimize the room using the balls. I don't believe there are any ready-made for the Mk-012's, but I'm sure some industriousness and a drill press could remedy the situation nicely. I've even seen billiard balls used for this application...

[Jan1973]

Ok, calling it a day wasn't an option. It would have meant to let a coworker down and to skip my first chance of a recording job.

Here's one of the recorded pieces, actually Part III of Heinrich Schütz's Musical Exequies. It wasn't the best, but it also wasn't the worst of the performed pieces:

http://www.hunnius.net/audio/06_Part_III.mp3

There's a wav as well for those with the bandwidth:

http://www.hunnius.net/audio/06_Part_III.wav

The clients were extremely happy with the results. Before, they recorded concerts with one mic straight into DAT, with no post processing at all.

I have to say I also was surprised by the quality of the Oktavas and the overall recording.

Considering the circumstances (Oktava cardioids into an EMU 0404, mics pretty much in the corners, about 60 ft from the choir), what do you think?

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Jan1973

...what do you think?

I love it! Glorious sense of the richness of the hall, great clarity to the soloists, full density when the ensemble wells up, very airy and believeable.

Great job!

[bradley]

Sounds very nice! The stereo image is quite wide and sounds like there is a bit of a hole in the middle. Not much you could have done though if you had no choice but to use a widely spaced pair!

Sill Sounds great though and its well performed.

Very nice.