d.a.v. preamp: are they noisy?

[fafalio]

i need a 4 to 6 preamp.
i m thinking to buy a dav 4 channel, but some people say they are noisy.
but this is true? can i hear the noise in the recording material????
if this is true, what could i buy as alternative?
i need professional, neutral, transient speed and low noise, for classical recording to associate to schoeps, overall specific for recording classical voice.
help me please.
best regards.
Alessandro.

[Eigenwert]

I use the two channel rack and it´s not noisy at all.

[FBM]

Hi, I have the DAV No:1 . No noise and a warm, round and full sound!
David

[ghellquist]

Noise is not a problem with the DAV. It is a really good mic preamp. Not Gods final gift to humanity, but a reliable solid performer. I still like my Millenia HV3D better, but it is a judgement of taste only.

Gunnar

[Plush]

The magnificent d.a.v. electronics mic amps are never noisy.

I have read here on GS about complaints that the Broadhurst Gardens range is noisy. All I can say about those who are complaining is that I do not trust that these people have set their gain structure correctly. The mic amp is not the source of any noise.

I recommend the d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 2 mic amp. With this quality unit you get 4 channels of fantastic mic amps and xlr connections on the back of the box. I do not like fiddling with dsub connectors for mic ins as on the Broadhurst Gardens No. 8 box.

And now for the phrase I have registered as a service mark--

"The d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 is the best mic amp in the world." (sm)

[hughesmr]

Use Schoeps through DAV all the time. Never any noise issues. Winning combination.

[Omicron_9]

Allow me to be the voice of dissent...

Yeah, they are. Kinda. My main pre was/is a Millennia HV-3D 8 channel. Have used Millennia for several years now. I had the BG-2 4-ch for a year or so. To this day, I can spot every track recorded w/the DAV due to the hiss (self-noise). That is the reason I sold it. I hated to, as I loved what it did, and was a fine compliment to the Millennia. But I do solo and chamber classical recording, and using low-noise mics like the Gefell M-930 (7 dB self-noise) into the Mill. results in about as dead quiet a signal path as you're going to find. The hiss was quite audible coming from the DAV. Then again, I always seem to be the only one around these parts who notices/complains about/rejects self-noise in mics and pres.

Now, that being said.. is it noisy? Probably not; the previous posters either can't hear the hiss or aren't bothered by it, or have never used a quieter pre for comparison (Plush, I don't include you in that statement). Is it noisier than a Millennia? Oh my yes. Then again, if you like "analog warmth," just think of it as built-in tape hiss. Et voila.

Flame suit on, and please people, this is just one person's opinion based on that one person's experience and aesthetics.

Kind regards,
-0.9

[hughesmr]

I've also used Sennheiser MKH8020s through the DAV (what's that mic have, 10dBA self noise?) ... so it ain't that I'm using noisy mics.

When compared to my Benchmark pres, I don't hear any audible difference in noise coming through as compared to the DAV. Hell, I don't hear any noise at all. All I hear is a qualitative difference ... Benchmark more transparent, DAV slightly more rounded.

The acoustic sources I record, which range from full-blown orchestras and pipe organs to soft solo woodwind and guitar stuff, usually dictate gain settings of between 30-40 dB for my SDCs. I'll admit to never running the DAV (or the Benchmark) up over 45 dB or so, so I don't really have anything to say about their noise output at that level. Maybe pumping up a ribbon thru it will expose some noise, but then you are using the wrong tool for the job ... get a TRP!

[FBM]

Hi Omicron_9, Shit to hear that your DAV unit was noisy. Why did you not send it back to Mick? A 100% that he would have take care of the problem, because I use it realy with out noise and it has a super sound!
Cheers David

[Omicron_9]

Originally Posted by FBM

Hi Omicron_9, Shit to hear that your DAV unit was noisy. Why did you not send it back to Mick? A 100% that he would have take care of the problem, because I use it realy with out noise and it has a super sound!
Cheers David

Hi David,

Let me state again that I loved what it did. A fine sounding unit, and it pained me greatly to part with it. I did send it back to Mick. When I first got it, all channels sounded like bacon frying; some worse than others. We spoke about it; Mick is a total gentleman and a true professional. I like him. He feared that he had sent a unit which was meant for EU and met the RoHS standard. I live in the US, and at that time, there was no RoHS restriction on imports. I shipped it back, and he either re-built it or sent out a different unit. That one was better, but again, hissy. I very much hesitate to call it noisy, but it WAS noisier than the Millennia, and the fact that I could always and immediately hear the hiss on any tracks recorded with it was disheartening and frustrating. And gain staging was not the culprit here. It is quite possible that I am either more sensitive to, or less tolerant of, (or both) self-noise in gear than most people. But the self-noise was why I sold it.

And once again, just one person's opinion about one single DAV unit. I'm not here to say they're all noisy, as I've only used one. But I am here to tell you that one was, for me, unusable.

Kind regards,
-0.9

[mastert]

Hi
i have a BG1 U (2 channel) and the sound is fantastic!!!
No noise!!!

[98indypacer]

I just recently purchased the BG1 and a matched pair of Sennheiser MKH8020’s. No noise and sounds great!

[fifthcircle]

I have a BG2 here and I find that with low-output mics it can get a bit noisy when cranked. That being said, few mics need that kind of gain and with the conventional stuff I use, it isn't a problem. The ones that come to mind are passive ribbons, some active ribbons (especially when on a quiet source- ie an SF24 on a solo classical guitar), and my Sanken CU-31 mics.

If I find that I need gain that is that clean, I'll reach for the Grace 801. If I want a bit more warmth, I reach for the DAV. The DAV is actually my clean pre in my "colored" rack- 2 channels A Designs Pacifica, API A2D, and DAV BG2.

--Ben

[FBM]

But the self-noise was why I sold it

Hi Omicron_9,
When you talk about self-noise there are only 3 possible reasons I can think of:
1. A defect in the unit
2. Groundloop
3. Some kind of interference
The first one can be fixed by D.A.V. and the 2e and 3e by your self. The only problem is when people read posts like the one from you they think better not buy one and I think your case is a exception and those people are missing a great pre-amp!
Cheers David

[FBM]

I had the BG-2 4-ch for a year or so. To this day, I can spot every track recorded w/the DAV due to the hiss (self-noise).

Hi Omnicron_9,
If you realy want to proof "self-noise" you have to make a recording of the pre-amp with nothing connected to it. A noisy track proofs nothing!
It can be anything.
Greetings David

[Coyoteous]

Originally Posted by FBM

Hi Omnicron_9,
If you realy want to proof "self-noise" you have to make a recording of the pre-amp with nothing connected to it. A noisy track proofs nothing!
It can be anything.
Greetings David

I think that is questionable too, without the input terminated.

[FBM]

Hi Coyoteous, You have a point! When I have a problem like this I isolate the unit and connect it to my A/D and Monitor-Amp turn the gain of my Monitor-amp up to hear if the problem is comming out of the unit. It works oké for me.
Then I test it with lower to higher levels at the pre-amp inputs and hear what is happening there. But when it is interference or a *groundloop you can hear it with the first test. Only a noisy track
proofs nothing. When this is not working out I go to a friend who can measure the unit for me.
Cheers David
* I keep the cables connected with no signal first

[Omicron_9]

Originally Posted by FBM

Hi Omicron_9,
When you talk about self-noise there are only 3 possible reasons I can think of:
1. A defect in the unit
2. Groundloop
3. Some kind of interference
The first one can be fixed by D.A.V. and the 2e and 3e by your self. The only problem is when people read posts like the one from you they think better not buy one and I think your case is a exception and those people are missing a great pre-amp!
Cheers David

David,

I can think of a 4th possibility: it was a noisy preamp. I've clearly stated in my posts that I thought it sounded wonderful. Sonically, I loved what it did. I did not, nor will I, state that it was better or worse than anything else. My statements are all based on my ear and my preferences; nothing more. People may draw their own conclusions; there are plenty of high recommendations here, and I'd never advise anyone as to how to spend their money. I also very clearly and carefully stated that MY DAV was noisy; I'm not making any blanket statements about all DAV products.

Here was my first out of many tests. Before everyone picks apart my methodology, understand that I'm not trying to be scientific; I'm only interested in recording the highest fidelity tracks I possibly can. I have a matched pair of AKG 414 XLIIs, self-noise is either 6 or 7 dB; can't recall right now. One was going into the Millennia, the other into the DAV. Gain levels were matched. My studio has isolated AC, and I've never had any ground issues, RF issues, etc., with any piece of gear; nor did I with the DAV. Switching back and forth between preamps went like this:

Mill:
DAV: sssssss
Mill:
DAV: sssssss

Mics were swapped; cables (Mogami quad) were swapped. Same results. And any tracks recorded using the DAV has the underlying noise; regardless of mic used.

I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone, not trying to sway anyone's opinion. Just stating MY experiences, and that's it. Just trying to share here, which is what I thought our gearslutz community was all about.

In conclusion: maybe I'm just more sensitive to self-noise. Maybe my unit wasn't representative of the DAV product line.

Kind regards,
-0.9

[ghellquist]

Interesting to hear. About the hiss in DAV.

If time permits i will try to do the same test. I have a Millenium HV3D as well as a DAV BG2 (for sale by the way, trying to move towards something more minimalistic than 20 channels). I could use Y-cables to connect one mic and then go into my converter. Not to much hopes for the short time though, as things are totally frantic right now. (And my main computer is dead anyway, did the mistake of installing SP3).

Gunnar

[wellyouneednt]

Hi fafalio,

I've had three preamps which are considered to be in the 'clean' school...the DAV BG1, Earthworks 1022, and the Millennia. I still own the DAV.

I'm also a bit like Omnicron_9 in that I'm very fussy about equipment noise unless it is intrinsic to a sound I want and/or unavoidable (Leslies, guitar amps, some FX units, etc).

I've found that the type of noise can be more distracting than its level...noise which is 'pitchy' (60Hz), buzzy or static-like seems more prominent even at lower levels than a more broadband, smoother noise...also, some pres have a noticably louder noise profile on the channel closest to the power supply. I've tested all my preamps, by---a) running a -50 DBfs tone into the pre---b) increasing the gain to achieve -2 DBfs---c) muting the test tone---d) measuring and listening to the resulting noise...I seriously jack my monitors at this point.

Keeping in mind that all three of these preamps provide more than acceptable levels of noise, especially at the levels indicated by hughesmr (30 to 40 db of gain)...

The Millennia was the quietest, very closely followed by the Earthworks, then the DAV. The noise spectra I prefered was the Earthworks...it sounded like the 'woosh' of the ocean very, very far off in the distance...soft, smooth and steady...not grating at all. I should have sampled the Earthworks noise before I sold it...it would have provided excellent low-level glue for tracks that need that kind of thing. The Earthworks has wonderful transient and bottom-end reproduction, but does not flatter (augment) the source at all. The sound of the Millennia has been debated on these pages countless times...no need for further comment.

I kept the DAV because I prefered the very slight color it imparts. The minor amount of additional noise has not been an issue, though I've never used it at full gain. My brick-style BG1 has a slightly (1-2 db) higher noise profile on the channel nearest the power supply.

An interesting finding of my preamp listening, was that some 'color' type pres are not necessarily much noisier than the 'clean' types.

Cheers,
wellyouneednt

[FFTT]

Not so much as a peep out of my BG-1

I've never thought of it as coloring the sound, but perhaps adding air
is more accurate.

The only hiss I hear comes from my own head with tinnitus and hearing loss.

[Jimbo]

Isn't the noise floor of a preamp often dependent on the input load?

I've notice that some manufacturers will state the noise spec of a mic preamp in the context of the input load.

For example:
DAV BG-1 noise: 25 microvolts [-110dB ref +20 dBu. Bandwidth 10Hz-18KHz input loaded 150 ohms, 32dB gain]

I've found that when comparing my ATI preamps with my Hamptone using a ribbon mic the ATI has some noise at max gain while the Hamptone doesn't. However, when I put a condenser mic on both, neither has noise at max gain. Surely this difference is due to the very different input loads generated by the microphones.

This might explain why DAV users are getting varying results.

[Plush]

Gentlemen, Please.

If your mic amp has noise it needs to be repaired. Something is wrong.

I have 20 channels of DAV and there has never been a noise.

Guess what??-----I know if there is a noise.

The DAV does not even have a noise cranked to max gain when used with an AEA R84 ribbon mic.

My DAV is as quiet as my Gordon mic amp.

If yours is not quiet, please return it to Mick Hinton for repair.

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Isn't the noise floor of a preamp often dependent on the input load?

I've notice that some manufacturers will state the noise spec of a mic preamp in the context of the input load.

For example:
DAV BG-1 noise: 25 microvolts [-110dB ref +20 dBu. Bandwidth 10Hz-18KHz input loaded 150 ohms, 32dB gain]

I've found that when comparing my ATI preamps with my Hamptone using a ribbon mic the ATI has some noise at max gain while the Hamptone doesn't. However, when I put a condenser mic on both, neither has noise at max gain. Surely this difference is due to the very different input loads generated by the microphones.

This might explain why DAV users are getting varying results.

Yes the lower the load the lower the noise, not all mic pres react the same when comparing numbers, say going from a 150 to a 300 ohm load, I mean that one pre might have a 2db difference and another only one db difference, noticed this the other day comparing 2 pres for noise.
The way the specs are stated can make them look better than they really are.
The above specs on the DAV is a good example, it's not EIN spec. So you have to do a little math to get the EIN spec. The filter used also has a huge influence, a 20 to 20khz is common.
I came up with EIN -122db for the DAV.
A condenser mic has a far hotter level than a ribbon mic, so the same source/distance will produce a perceived LOWER noise.
The gain has to be the exact same when comparing noise, both at 60db for example.

[springer]

Two things that strike me pleasantly about the BG2 unit that I own is it's small size (depth of about 8"), it's cool running temp (NO FAN), and it's featherweight. Such a delightful little unit!
Nice job Mick!

[Roland]

The Dav pre-amps spec pretty well, however they do produce more noise according to their published spec than the Millenia and a couple of the other top pre-amps around. People love the sound of them and they have many fans amongst respected members of the recording community.

I would hazard at a guess under most normal situations their noise floor would be inaudible, however recording extremely quite instruments at very high gain might bring about a situation where a noise floor is perceivable when compared back to back with something like the millenia. The price difference also should be factored into the equation.

Noisy, no, noisier possibly.

Ultimately you pay's your money and makes your choice.

Regards



Roland

[XLR2XLR]

No disrespect plush but if that's you in the photo are sure you can hear noise?

You probably cannot hear above 10kHz.

As I said no dis intended, just biology?

me too when I reach your age same with everyone.

[Omicron_9]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

Yes the lower the load the lower the noise, not all mic pres react the same when comparing numbers, say going from a 150 to a 300 ohm load, I mean that one pre might have a 2db difference and another only one db difference, noticed this the other day comparing 2 pres for noise.
The way the specs are stated can make them look better than they really are.
The above specs on the DAV is a good example, it's not EIN spec. So you have to do a little math to get the EIN spec. The filter used also has a huge influence, a 20 to 20khz is common.
I came up with EIN -122db for the DAV.
A condenser mic has a far hotter level than a ribbon mic, so the same source/distance will produce a perceived LOWER noise.
The gain has to be the exact same when comparing noise, both at 60db for example.

Greetings, Mike:

I neglected to mention that I've added a True P2 to my arsenal this year. I love it; totally quiet amp, and its noise spec is stated as -132 dB. The Millennia is rated at -133 dB. Giving the DAV the benefit of the doubt and saying its EIN is indeed -122 dB, that difference is not insignificant, and might explain (or prove) what I was hearing in mine.

I know the following has little to do with the issue at hand, but regarding one other difference between the DAV and the Millennia: the build quality between the DAV and the Millennia can't even be compared. The Millennia is the best-built piece of kit I've ever had.

Kind regards,
-0.9

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by Omicron_9

Greetings, Mike:

I neglected to mention that I've added a True P2 to my arsenal this year. I love it; totally quiet amp, and its noise spec is stated as -132 dB. The Millennia is rated at -133 dB. Giving the DAV the benefit of the doubt and saying its EIN is indeed -122 dB, that difference is not insignificant, and might explain (or prove) what I was hearing in mine.

I know the following has little to do with the issue at hand, but regarding one other difference between the DAV and the Millennia: the build quality between the DAV and the Millennia can't even be compared. The Millennia is the best-built piece of kit I've ever had.

Kind regards,
-0.9

How specs are stated is very important; the DAV's -122 is with a 150 ohm load, the Millennias -133 is shorted input.
The Millennia could not do better than -130.?? with a 150 ohm load, -131 being the limit.

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by XLR2XLR

No disrespect plush but if that's you in the photo are sure you can hear noise?

You probably cannot hear above 10kHz.

As I said no dis intended, just biology?

me too when I reach your age same with everyone.

Wow... Al Schmitt has some of the best EARS around, I would say AL's in his 60's has over 160 gold and platinum records to his credit and is still recording some of the best musicians alive...
So think before you type...