Spaced LDCs on choir, how safe and sane?

[MichaelPatrick]

25 years ago I recorded lots of things with AKG 414 EBs, including choirs. My favorite pattern was ORTF. For choral recordings now I use stereo ribbons in a Blumlein pattern with omni outriggers.

I'll soon record a large choir on risers behind a full orchestra, and I'm thinking about putting spaced LDC cardioids (Lawson L47 FETs) on the choir.

Since the orchestra mains will be a pair of omnis, the choral LDCs will be used like spots to ensure the choir's articulation and force aren't lost.

I've never spaced cardioids like this but something in my gut says it'll work. In any case, It's been so long since I've used LDCs on a choir that I can't help but reach out for some advice from anyone who's done this or anything like it.

[d_fu]

I use my matching AKG 414 B-TLs (not TL-II) for the exact same purpose sometimes, and I get good results.

[EDIT]
Care for a sample? 2 414s on the (fairly large) choir, maybe 2 m apart and 4 m up or so, added to a Straus packet main pair (Neumann KM131 & Beyer MC803), etc. Testing Samplitude's "Am-Munition" compressor plugin here for the first time...

Daniel

[RobAnderson]

Nothing wrong with spaced LDC's as spots on choir - they often use 414's (B-ULS) for this at Carnegie. Cardioid is definitely the way to go if these are spot mic's.

I have also used 414's as choir spots from time to time, but I prefer to use Schoeps MK4's or Neumann 140's. However, there are some who argue that the LDC is actually better to use on choir because of its greater diaphragm mass. Depending on the situation, I will sometimes use three mic's across the choir instead of just two.

I don't know these Lawson mic's you mention, but if they are good mic's I bet they will be just fine.

[MBishopSFX]

I get excellent results spot-micing a choir at the rear of an orchestra using 4-5 mono ribbon mics depending on the size of choir. Remember, the off-axis rejection on a ribbon can be up to 90 dB - far better than what a cardioid mic can do. In addition to getting articulation and good tone on the choir, the biggest challenge at the rear of the orchestra is to not get too much of the orchestra! After all, you don't want an inside-out sound on the orchestra caused by too much pickup of horns, percussion and brass. It takes some work and extra hardware to position the ribbon mics for both good pickup and get the figure-8 nulls in the right place, but it's worth the effort.

Favorite ribbon mics for chorus have been AEA R-84s and Royer SF-1s.

.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by d_fu

I use my matching AKG 414 B-TLs (not TL-II) for the exact same purpose sometimes, and I get good results.

[EDIT]
Care for a sample? 2 414s on the (fairly large) choir, maybe 2 m apart and 4 m up or so, added to a Straus packet main pair (Neumann KM131 & Beyer MC803), etc. Testing Samplitude's "Am-Munition" compressor plugin here for the first time...

Daniel

Yep, that's the kind of choral capture I'm after. Nice clip!

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

I get excellent results spot-micing a choir at the rear of an orchestra using 4-5 mono ribbon mics depending on the size of choir. Remember, the off-axis rejection on a ribbon can be up to 90 dB - far better than what a cardioid mic can do. In addition to getting articulation and good tone on the choir, the biggest challenge at the rear of the orchestra is to not get too much of the orchestra! After all, you don't want an inside-out sound on the orchestra caused by too much pickup of horns, percussion and brass. It takes some work and extra hardware to position the ribbon mics for both good pickup and get the figure-8 nulls in the right place, but it's worth the effort.

Favorite ribbon mics for chorus have been AEA R-84s and Royer SF-1s.

.

Michael, thanks for this tip. I'll be recording a setup just like this later in the season. In the past I've used cardis and mixing was difficult.

To get the best null, do you leave the ribbons upright or put them on their side?

Also, since they're quite close to the choir, how do you manage to get the una voce blend that a choir should have when listening from a seat in the audience? Do you raise them quite high? It seems that greater distance/height would improve null rejection by narrowing the angle to instruments in the back of the orchestra.

[mrsteaks]

Hi, Michael!

My, is this post timely! I'm recording an ensemble and large choir on risers this Saturday and Sunday night (Carmel Mission on Saturday, very live room). I attended their tech rehearsal last night and settled on the following mic arrays:

1 - SF-12, front and center, positioned over the music director, up ten feet.
2 - Schoeps MK2s left and right as outriggers, slightly further back than the SF-12, up eight feet.
3 - Cascade Fat Heads (no laughing, they work quite well on chorus) in a spaced array (about six feet apart) on the choir, up twelve feet, and angled with the capsules down towards the choir. The nulls should be pointing at the ensemble this way, and the rear lobe largely at the ceiling. It should be sufficient, and I will let you know!

Happy Holidays!

[MichaelPatrick]

I'm eager to know what you get Mark. I'll be doing a similar setup in May and I may just pull out my Fatheads too. I hadn't thought of it until re-reading Michael Bishop's words here. When I read his input first time many months ago I had already designed the setup and didn't want to change. The results were OK but he's dead right about that last row of horns in the orchestra. I fought them in the mix and they won over the choir half the time.

Originally Posted by mrsteaks

Hi, Michael!

My, is this post timely! I'm recording an ensemble and large choir on risers this Saturday and Sunday night (Carmel Mission on Saturday, very live room). I attended their tech rehearsal last night and settled on the following mic arrays:

1 - SF-12, front and center, positioned over the music director, up ten feet.
2 - Schoeps MK2s left and right as outriggers, slightly further back than the SF-12, up eight feet.
3 - Cascade Fat Heads (no laughing, they work quite well on chorus) in a spaced array (about six feet apart) on the choir, up twelve feet, and angled with the capsules down towards the choir. The nulls should be pointing at the ensemble this way, and the rear lobe largely at the ceiling. It should be sufficient, and I will let you know!

Happy Holidays!

[hughesmr]

Hi Mark,

I'm anxoius to hear some of your results with this as well. I am recording two DIFFERENT full Messiahs next weekend over two days in two locations with two different orchestras/choruses. My basic array will be A/B 8020s as mains with two widely spaced Schoeps MK21 choir spots. The only difficulty I'll really have is that in one of the gigs, the soloists are in front of the chorus but behind the orchestra. I only have two MK21 which I am reserving for choir (basically spaced 1/3 across), so I am thinking of trying to run an x/y pair of Gefell cards for my soloist pickup, in fairly close compared to the choir mics. Or might one rather recommend only one card for soloists panned to the center for maximum orchestra rejection?

Oh, these are the times I wished I had some ribbons. I'd really like Santa to drop about 2 or 3 sf1s in my stocking!

And to Michael: how much gain do you run on ribbon choir spots relative to the gain on your mains (which are condensers, I'm sure)? I'm usually running condenser mains at about 30-36 dB or so, and wonder if a clean 46-50 dB for ribbons in this application would likely be sufficient. Would like to get by without springing for a TRP too...

Cheers to all!

[mrsteaks]

Hi, Mike H!

It is good to hear from you! I will be happy to talk about the results - hopefully Monday, if I can get the time to do a rough mix off the HD24XR. I'll post a clip, as well. I have to say I've always been very pleased with ribbons on choirs and chorus.

I'm thinking you might want to run one card in the center for the soloists. The XY setup may work, too. If you have the luxury of trying it before the down beat, see what you get. And do let us know!

Michael - those Fat Heads DO work well on chorus, especially if used with an SF12. They have very similar characters, and the pattern can really work for you when they're used as choir spots. You might consider dusting yours off! In the final mix, I run them considerably below the "front array", just using them to add clarity and power to the chorus. I don't recall the actual number, but it's on the order or 12db (or more) below the front array.

Have a good weekend, guys!

[mrsteaks]

Well, the fire marshall in the Mission had a fit with the spaced pair in front of the choir because they were "blocking an exit aisle", so they didn't get used. The rough mix shows me I didn't need 'em anyway, at least not in there. For the Sunday gig, I had real problem with room (as did the choir and ensemble, and not "the" room, but space), so I went with a quasi Decca Tree array with the Royer on the point and the Schoeps as the flankers. Dammit, if that didn't work well!

I'm starting a five night recording "marathon" with a long time client, another choir, Wednesday. They won't have an ensemble, just organ and piano, but a couple of the venues they'll be in do lend themselves to using the Fatheads as spots on the choir with the 1 2 3 Schoeps/Royer out front. So, I'll try again to grab you folks a sample!

Hopefully the fire marshall will stay home!

[MichaelPatrick]

Yes, samples, and pictures too!

Originally Posted by mrsteaks

Well, the fire marshall in the Mission had a fit with the spaced pair in front of the choir because they were "blocking an exit aisle", so they didn't get used. The rough mix shows me I didn't need 'em anyway, at least not in there. For the Sunday gig, I had real problem with room (as did the choir and ensemble, and not "the" room, but space), so I went with a quasi Decca Tree array with the Royer on the point and the Schoeps as the flankers. Dammit, if that didn't work well!

I'm starting a five night recording "marathon" with a long time client, another choir, Wednesday. They won't have an ensemble, just organ and piano, but a couple of the venues they'll be in do lend themselves to using the Fatheads as spots on the choir with the 1 2 3 Schoeps/Royer out front. So, I'll try again to grab you folks a sample!

Hopefully the fire marshall will stay home!

[mrsteaks]

Michael, I will do it!

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by mrsteaks

Michael, I will do it!

Actually, here's two shots. One of the "quasi tree" and the other of the rig I used over the weekend (I know, you've seen one, you've seen them all).

Both shots were taken with an iPhone in low light, not a great combo. However, they're visible. The "tree" shot is a little deceiving. The Schoeps were spaced 27 inches, angled down about 35 degrees, and angled outward more than 45 degrees. They were up nine feet. The Royer was 24 inches (or so) in front of the Schoeps pair on it's own stand, up eleven feet, and angled towards the choir at around 30 degrees, in an effort to put the rear lobes at an angle to where they didn't hear anything direct.

There will be more after this coming week!

[MichaelPatrick]

Was this a live performance? I'd never get away with that much metal up front. I'm seriously jealous

Originally Posted by mrsteaks

Actually, here's two shots...!

[edwinhurwitz]

Nice! What pres were you using?

Edwin

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Was this a live performance? I'd never get away with that much metal up front. I'm seriously jealous

Michael, that was a live performance. The choral director said "I want the best sound possible". I love it when they say that!

Edwin, I used an AEA TRP for my SF12 (I almost always use it with the SF12, it's a great little pre) and I was using my SCA (Seventh Circle Audio) pre for the Schoeps. The SCA has four T15 and three C84 modules in it; I used two T15s. I tracked it all to my HD24XR (at 88.2/24), then the analog outs from it went to my Rane SM27 for a scratch mix, which fed my Masterlink and HHB Burn It (backup, backup). That rig, plus or minus a few pres, is generally how I do business. It all fits in my Hyundai, BTW!

Thanks for the questions!

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by mrsteaks

Edwin, I used an AEA TRP for my SF12 (I almost always use it with the SF12, it's a great little pre) and I was using my SCA (Seventh Circle Audio) pre for the Schoeps. The SCA has four T15 and three C84 modules in it; I used two T15s. I tracked it all to my HD24XR (at 88.2/24), then the analog outs from it went to my Rane SM27 for a scratch mix, which fed my Masterlink and HHB Burn It (backup, backup). That rig, plus or minus a few pres, is generally how I do business. It all fits in my Hyundai, BTW!

Thanks for the questions!

Nice! I am curious what you find the differences to be between the T15s and the C84s. I have 6 C84s which I like fairly well (although they are a smidgeon less clean that my Grace pres).

I am also curious if anyone has used the J99 pres for recording classical. I have an annual project coming up this January recording 4 cellos students in a living room for their audition demo. In the past I have close mic'ed each cellist and done room mics to help them along with their blend, but this year I have another gig right after so I don't have time to do that and I figure they've gotten a year better so I want to go with a stereo pair. Ultimate clarity may not be a plus here as they are still working on the finer points of their tone, so maybe a pre that is a little more euphonic might help.

Anyway, nice rig. Looks very much like what I used to use before I went to Metric Halo boxes. The HD24XR sounds very nice and never let me down!

Edwin

[Nobilmente]

Hi Edwin

I have not used the microphone pres that you mention, but I think you would find the DAV BG1 to be a great addition for what you want.

I hesitate to call it euphonic, as I know its job is simply to amplify what the mics give out...............................but it is!!

All the best
Geoff