Pipe organ recording in churches/cathedrals (sample mp3 clip inside) (repost)

[CDN_Drew]

Reposted due to forum outage deleting this thread. Thank you google cache.

A bit of background before I start. I have a Bachelor's degree in (Pipe) Organ Performance, and I'm also a consummate audiophile and run an audio/video sales and installation business (as a sideline to my main career).

I have many organist friends, and seeing my dual passion as organist and audiophile, I'm looking to bridge the gap between the two and get into recordings.

I started out using just a PC and a Mackie Satellite. I just got a Sound Devices 702, which I think is a great piece of gear. My mics currently are Neumann KM-183 omnis, but I'm exploring selling them and getting some DPA 4006es.

Here's a live recording I made using the 702/KM-183 last week. Please let me know what you think.

RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting

Spaced omnis about 10ft apart, 15ft up on Shure S15A stands w/shock mounts. The organ is about 70ft wide across the front, so I put my mics about this distance back, pointing forward. The room itself is about 40ft high by 300ft long.

I have to admit, I'm fairly new to all of this and I'm not exactly sure how I go abouts getting from where I am now to making great quality recordings. The extent of my post-processing was just bumping the volume up.

I'll leave it at that and respond to any questions you may have. I greatly appreciate any tips/hints/advice you may provide. Thanks!

[CDN_Drew]

joelpatterson wrote:

Sounds good-- a tad distant, but I guess when you're trying to record the whole football field at once, that comes with the territory. Great sense of the "pressure" of the low register. Maybe with such a gargantuan instrument, you could experiment with an array of mics along its front? This can get into strange panning/phasing issues. I always hunger to hear more of the "up close and personal" side of life, but this is strictly a personal preference of mine. Nice work!

[CDN_Drew]

hughesmr wrote:

You should be able to get everything (or virtually everything) to make a fabulous stereo recording of pipe organ, regardless of the acoustic, with a single stereo pair. An ambient pr can give you some options, but a CAREFULLY placed main pr will deliver great results.

The key word in the above paragraph is CAREFULLY. The truth is that in a large room with a gallery installation, your stands are not getting the mics up where they need to be to achieve a good balance of clarity and capture of reverberation. As an organist, you probably know the sound you want to capture (and I know ... I married a DM in organ from IU, we met in an organ loft on an organ study tour in Paris, have been an organ buff for 25 years and have recorded oodles of them) ... the thing is that you will need to place the mics probably closer than you think (but not too close!). And a 15' spread is pointless... to achieve good separation in a stereo recording, the physics of microphony dictate that you won't need to go further than 3 or so ft apart at the most. The width of the organ is largely irrelevant.

4006s are fine mics. If you have bucks for those, you might instead consider the 4006TLs, which are by all accounts an even smoother sounding mic. I use Schoeps MK2S and have always loved the result, and the new Sennheiser 8020 holds much promise, but have yet to try them on organ.

Listen to Roger Sherman's work on the Loft label ... always a stereo pr of 4006s. Never a disappointing result. ULSI recordings by Erik Sikkema use a pr of 4006 (see ULSI RECORDINGS). I think there is something of a gimmick in the technique, but it does sound really good.

And just for fun, you'll probably enjoy this site:

Location Recording and Interview with Christopher Frommen

Be sure to also click on "French 2006 Recordings" and "Photos" at the top of the page.

[CDN_Drew]

I wrote:

Michael, Joel,

Thanks for your replies.

I own a great amount of JAV and Aeolus CDs so I'm very familiar with Christoph's work. It sounds absolutely fantastic, so that's my goal, to achieve as close to that as possible.

I do have some direct questions about gear though:

1) Will the DPA 4006 be considerably better than the Neumann KM-183 I already have? They're triple the price. If they're really worth it, then I'll make the plunge. I've also looked into the Sennheiser MKH20 that John Eargle seemed to like for his Delos recordings. It's hard to compare the virtues of the mics without actually having them, but I'll take what input I can get.

2) Is there any gear that can really cause a meaningful difference between the mics and the 702? I'm rather noob to pro audio, so I don't know how much difference adding a dedicated mic pre or ADC to the 702 will be. I gather that the 702 is quite good with the stuff it has built in, I just don't know how good it is, and whether I'd be better off putting some better stuff inbetween if I go with the DPA 4006.

3) I've had zero luck finding affordable stands with substantial height extension. Michael, you're probably right that 15ft doesn't get me much of anywhere in terms of the height I need. Luckily enough here in Toronto, most organs are at the front in chambers or freestanding so I don't need extreme height. The S15As that I have don't seem particularly stable either fully extended with a shock mounted mic on top, so mounting a mic bar to them likely isn't going to happen. Recommendations on a good 1m/3ft mic bar while we're at it?

4) Would a Jecklin disk setup be beneficial, or should I stick to a spaced pair?

I'll play with some placement options on Thursday. I'm doing another recital then, mind you a different instrument than the one featured in the clip here. I'll try putting the mics closer together and closer to the instrument. I agree with your points of view that this clip is a touch too distant. I'm still trying to find that fine balance between having the mics up the organ's arse for clarity and getting the presence in the room.

[CDN_Drew]

sonare wrote:


1) Will the DPA 4006 be considerably better than the Neumann KM-183 I already have? They're triple the price. If they're really worth it, then I'll make the plunge. I've also looked into the Sennheiser MKH20 that John Eargle seemed to like for his Delos recordings. It's hard to compare the virtues of the mics without actually having them, but I'll take what input I can get.

You are correct when you say it is hard to compare without hearing, but I can tell you from owning the mics you mention the the 4006TL is KING. There is a good reason it is triple the price vs the Neumanns for organ. Be sure you also get a pair of trapzoidal grids so you can compare to the stock silver grids. Bottom line-- detail and clarity that you will not get with other mics. Not having tried Sonodores they are still the great unknown.

2) Is there any gear that can really cause a meaningful difference between the mics and the 702? I'm rather noob to pro audio, so I don't know how much difference adding a dedicated mic pre or ADC to the 702 will be. I gather that the 702 is quite good with the stuff it has built in, I just don't know how good it is, and whether I'd be better off putting some better stuff inbetween if I go with the DPA 4006.

All depends on budget. If you have a Macbook then consider the Metric Halo ULN-2 If you have LOTS of budget look at the Prism Orpheus. For cable the Gotham GAC-3 or Mogami AES is super for non-mega $$ stuff.

3) I've had zero luck finding affordable stands with substantial height extension. Michael, you're probably right that 15ft doesn't get me much of anywhere in terms of the height I need. Luckily enough here in Toronto, most organs are at the front in chambers or freestanding so I don't need extreme height. The S15As that I have don't seem particularly stable either fully extended with a shock mounted mic on top, so mounting a mic bar to them likely isn't going to happen. Recommendations on a good 1m/3ft mic bar while we're at it?

Get the nice and heavy JTL Black Tower from Adorama: 5008 JTL Black Tower 19.5' Lightstand, 8 Section, Detachable 5/8" Top Mounting Stud with 1/4" x 20 Thread, Supports 25 Lbs., Black Anodized.

Need more height? AEA 14ft extension: Modular Microphone Stands – Products – AEA Big Ribbon Mics™ and Recording Tools

4) Would a Jecklin disk setup be beneficial, or should I stick to a spaced pair?

No to JD-- 1m spacing is ideal for organ for many reasons, and you can build your own 1 meter bar with 2 thicknesses of 2" x 1/8" aluminum bar stock, pop rivets, and a drill for appropriately sized holes.

Have fun!

Rich

[CDN_Drew]

I'm wondering now about a few things:

Where do I find a mic bar that gives me a 1m spread? The DPA kits come with one that gives me half that...is that good enough?

Also, between the DPA 4006 and my Sound Devices 702, what can I put in to improve on the audio quality? Something like a Grace Lunatec V3, and some sort of high grade A/D? I don't know how much this stuff improves over the 702, so maybe someone can give me some insight on it.

More questions about recording....should I do 16/44.1 when I record or do 24/96 and then downmix (software/hardware to do this?)? I'm also not sure what sort of post processing I should be looking to do on my recorded file once I get it onto my computer. There isn't any "mastering" to do I don't think since it's just a stereo set of mics......

Sorry I'm such a newbie at this. I'm doing my best to learn as much as I can. Thanks for all your help guys.

[Legacy]

Originally Posted by CDN_Drew

I'm wondering now about a few things:

Where do I find a mic bar that gives me a 1m spread? The DPA kits come with one that gives me half that...is that good enough?

Also, between the DPA 4006 and my Sound Devices 702, what can I put in to improve on the audio quality? Something like a Grace Lunatec V3, and some sort of high grade A/D? I don't know how much this stuff improves over the 702, so maybe someone can give me some insight on it.

More questions about recording....should I do 16/44.1 when I record or do 24/96 and then downmix (software/hardware to do this?)? I'm also not sure what sort of post processing I should be looking to do on my recorded file once I get it onto my computer. There isn't any "mastering" to do I don't think since it's just a stereo set of mics......

Sorry I'm such a newbie at this. I'm doing my best to learn as much as I can. Thanks for all your help guys.

Hi Drew,

There certainly is nothing like a really great pipe organ recording and it is no small challenge to make one (kind of like playing it - really hard to do well but nothing like it when you get there as you clearly know).

AEA sells a 1m bar as well as a whole bunch of great stands and adapters (as Rich pointed out):

Modular Microphone Array Positioners – Products – AEA Big Ribbon Mics™ and Recording Tools

But frankly the easiest thing would be to get two really tall stands so you have the option of positioning the mics a little wider or narrower as the recording requires.

The short answer is that there is ALWAYS something that will improve the quality ;-) At some point this becomes an aesthetic question and only you can answer that. However I think pipe organ especially benefits from really premium mic pres and A-Ds. The 702 is certainly 'good enough' but I suspect that as with any all in one recorder the law of you-get-what-you-pay-for still applies and improvements can be made with more $. I'd suggest starting with a really premium preamp. More importantly however, what are you monitoring on when you make these recordings?

Personally I think DSD and organ are a heavenly match but that's a whole other can of worms...

I'd record at the highest resolution you could and use something like this to sample rate convert after editing:

Voxengo

Weiss :: SARACON

Others may feel that 441 is a better choice from the start.

As for post processing I'd suggest finding a mastering engineer who shares your passion for classical / church / organ music. The price of an hour consult or a mastering session or two would teach you more about what you want to change about your recording approach than anything else short of apprenticing with an established engineer. Hearing your recordings on a full range, well calibrated monitoring system is a hell of a lot of fun as well.

Best Wishes,
Silas

[lakeshorephatty]

Hi Drew,

I do nothing in this area of recording, i will however go out on a limb and say your neumanns a probably as good a bet as any other sdc's you might try. Preference will dictate what you want, but for my preference I would find those mics quite a good choice due to the high end bump.

This is because you're miking at such a distance. Its very nice to have a high end bump like that to restore some of the presence and avoid things turning to mush. I don't know if the other mics you are considering have similar qualities, but it certainly sounds like you have a great recording there. Perhaps a different preamp would open up the sound a little. Either way you might have what you need already. I wouldn't flip the mics but if you can try others you are interested in without getting rid of what you have thats the best bet to see if its an improvement.

Russell

[G Gilliam]

Hi Drew,

I suggest that you also investigate the Microtech Gefell M960 omni mics for organ recording in reverberant buildings. I have used it many times and the results have never disappointed. Another great organ mic (and overall fantastic omni) is the Josephson C617, although it is considerably more costly. The new Sennheiser 8020 omni also sounds promising--I've used a pair in a reverberant church and they worked well with organ. The M960, however, is designed for diffuse field use and its high-frequency rise works well in preserving clarity in a reverberant space. The Josephson probably does as well, but I doubt the Sennheiser 8020 will have enough high-frequency lift to preserve the clarity.

I agree that a mic spacing of 1 meter apart is sufficient. A good source for mic mounting accessories is Audio Engineering Associates (Modular Microphone Array Positioners – Products – AEA Big Ribbon Mics™ and Recording Tools). Buy one of his 1 meter bars and three SMP-S mic positioners. Or you can buy aluminum stock to fit the SMP-S and make your own bar. They also sell tall stands and extensions. Bogen/Manfrotto lighting stands are also very good and can be bought at B&H Photo/Video in NYC.

As another person wrote, don't position the mics too far away from the organ, especially if the room is reverberant.

I also use a Sound Devices 702 recorder and I have had great results without external mic amps or converters. I believe that changing to any of the above microphones will improve the recorded sound quality more than adding external preamps or A-Ds. When you want to buy a new preamp, I highly recommend the two-channel or six-channel unit from Fred Forssell--it is a great-sounding unit. Adding one of the Forssell amps to the SD 702 definitely enhances the sounds, but the 702's internal amps are very respectable.

Good luck. I've been recording organs since the 1970s and also worked as an organbuilder for about 20 years. I understand the problems in recording these instruments.

[CDN_Drew]

Well, I just got a smashing deal on some DPA 4006-TL, so those are now on their way.

Now I need a really great pre. From what I've read/seen, the Millennia HV-3C and Neve Portico 5012 seem to fit the bill. The Forssell SMP-2 looks like a great unit, but it's more money (at least new) and a newer unit so it won't be easy to find used (and more accessible money wise). Seems many here think the Millennia is a bit on the sterile side? There's the DAV BG-1 too....so many choices!

For location monitoring, I've ordered up a pair of Sennheiser HD600. Back home, I have my audiophile system (centered around a pair of Von Schweikert VR4-SRs), but will probably pick up a pair of Dynaudio BM5A or something similar, maybe with the Benchmark USB DAC1 too.


The DPA kit comes with the 50cm mic bar though. Is that acceptable or should I really seek something wider? The JTL stands are out of stock at Adorama so I may just have to pickup an AEA stand....plus the mic bar if the 50cm spread of the DPA one isn't sufficient.

[hughesmr]

Congratulations! You are getting some FINE fine kit!

The Millennia is the standard matchup with the 4006TLs it seems, but is not the only option. You might also consider (in the same league, I think) an Earthworks pre. They are really really clean. Many like Grace, too, but I can't claim to know about them myself. I really think you should be leaning toward transparent and away from colored for what you'll be doing.

And ...+1 for the DAC1 USB ... A FAB piece of gear you will not regret having.

A cheap Sabra-Som 1m bar might be an wider option for you in addition to the DPA bar. Visit Posthorn Recordings online for more info.

[G Gilliam]

I would not recommend the Neve Portico 5012 mic preamps for recording organ. They have input and output transformers and will not give the best sonic results in the extreme low frequencies present in a good pipe organ. Most of the preamps I've used for organ are in the same price range as Forssell's SMP-2 and it is the best in my opinion. The bargain DAV BG-1 also sounds very good, doesn't have transformers, and is significantly less money. For a lower cost, the DAV is probably your best purchase.

I found the Earthworks and Millennia to sound good on organs, but not exceptional. Another great one to try is the DACS (through Independent Audio).

You really need a one meter wide bar, and I'd suggest somewhere between 70-90cm for the mics. The 50cm bar is too narrow--I do not believe you will get the kind of room sound and decorrelated bass you probably want with it. You can always try it and see before buying or making a wider one.

Please post again after you've recorded with the new DPA mics and compared them to the KM183s. Using the Neumann SBK 130 sound diffraction spheres on the 183s can really improve the sound (and "reach") of those mics when they are distant from the sound source.

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by CDN_Drew

Well, I just got a smashing deal on some DPA 4006-TL, so those are now on their way.

Now I need a really great pre. From what I've read/seen, the Millennia HV-3C and Neve Portico 5012 seem to fit the bill. The Forssell SMP-2 looks like a great unit, but it's more money (at least new) and a newer unit so it won't be easy to find used (and more accessible money wise). Seems many here think the Millennia is a bit on the sterile side? There's the DAV BG-1 too....so many choices!

Having used just about every DPA mic and pre combination, the Forssell has no competition. The 4006TL paired with the SMP-2 is a match made in heaven. I would look at the Cranesong products, as well. The Millennia is a bit "dry" for my taste. Grace also makes a new pre for that can be used with the DPA HV mic's, but I haven't tried it yet. The best sounding recordings I've done have used Forssell products, so spend a bit more and get the best.

[Schallfeldweber]

Listen to Roger Sherman's work on the Loft label ... always a stereo pr of 4006s. Never a disappointing result. ULSI recordings by Erik Sikkema use a pr of 4006. I think there is something of a gimmick in the technique, but it does sound really good.

I am happy to read Roger's recordings are so well received. Actually Roger uses 4003s, as I do.

Some may find the ULSI technigue a gimmick, probably because of the pictured microphone holder on my website.

Maybe you have a look here: Felixson Audio | DIFA - The Diffuse Field Adapter | Literature

Also DIFA is a technique appearing from a distance not more than a simple pair of omni's, after reading the story behind it, it may change your opinion a bit from seeing a picture of a microphone set-up.

My technique has not more in common with DIFA then using a pair of omni's. ULSI is more than a pair of relatively norrow placed omni's, but what it is really about, I cannot divulge. BTW, ULSI stands for ultra linear stereo imaging.

Visit my website and listen to some soundsamples, or better order some of my ULSI-recordings at Gothic-Catalog.

Thanks for your time,

Erik Sikkema

[RickZ]

This clip is from a recent recital by a 16 year old young lady at a local college chapel. The day was 98 degrees outside, which likely caused the slight out-of-tune-ness at the final chord.

I've always preferred directional mics, not the norm for pipe organ recording, but I will give up some room ambience for more detail in the sound from the front.

FWIW,
Rick Z

[moon1234]

Originally Posted by CDN_Drew

Reposted due to forum outage deleting this thread. Thank you google cache.

A bit of background before I start. I have a Bachelor's degree in (Pipe) Organ Performance, and I'm also a consummate audiophile and run an audio/video sales and installation business (as a sideline to my main career).

I have many organist friends, and seeing my dual passion as organist and audiophile, I'm looking to bridge the gap between the two and get into recordings.

I started out using just a PC and a Mackie Satellite. I just got a Sound Devices 702, which I think is a great piece of gear. My mics currently are Neumann KM-183 omnis, but I'm exploring selling them and getting some DPA 4006es.

Here's a live recording I made using the 702/KM-183 last week. Please let me know what you think.

RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting

Spaced omnis about 10ft apart, 15ft up on Shure S15A stands w/shock mounts. The organ is about 70ft wide across the front, so I put my mics about this distance back, pointing forward. The room itself is about 40ft high by 300ft long.

I have to admit, I'm fairly new to all of this and I'm not exactly sure how I go abouts getting from where I am now to making great quality recordings. The extent of my post-processing was just bumping the volume up.

I'll leave it at that and respond to any questions you may have. I greatly appreciate any tips/hints/advice you may provide. Thanks!

Can you please tell me who the composer is and what piece of music this is?

Thanks,
Moon

[evm1024]

Been a while since I've done any serious organ recording - getting back into that - I tend to use Blumlein ribbons up 10 to 15' depending on the room and adjust the distance back from the facade to get the presence/room ratio that sounds best.

Oh, One more thing for height. You can use height to adjust for choir organ to swell/great sound that is best. Usually not a problem....

--Ethan

[muffcook]

Hello:
Two days ago our church hosted a dedication concert to celebrate completion of the installation of its new pipe organ (with antiphonal organ). As used here, 'new' indicates new to us. The instrument was assembled by the Organ Foundation of Mercer Island, WA from a console, controls, blowers, chimes, and 1,300+ pipes, all of which were originally parts of other organs. The entire restoration, building, and installation process required 6,000+ hours of skilled volunteer labor spread over several years. The end result is simply stunning!

At the beginning of the installation process, I contacted our primary organist to discuss the potential of completing one or more recording sessions, with the intent of producing CD's for the enjoyment of church members, and for sale to the general public if the results of the recording project were of appropriate quality.

Based upon his enthusiastic endorsement of the idea, I began to do some research to try to gather the information and knowledge necessary to attempt the project. I have a Studer A807 studio tape deck in excellent condition which I would hope to use for the project. It is a 1/4" half-track 3-speed machine, with separate time code track; 7.5/15/30 ips options; Dolby HX Pro headroom extension; balanced inputs/outputs. However, I have no microphones, and they were the primary reason for my internet search. So, to keep this inquiry at a reasonable length, I will simply say that all searches eventually pointed to the DPA 4006-TL mics as 'THE' choice, and this thread seems to confirm that fact.

The dilemma lies in the cost of the mics. Until the organ project arrived on the horizon, I was painfully considering selling my Studer deck. Although it is unquestionably the highest quality component in my home audio system, I simply do not envision using it in that context. And selling it would allow me to complete the as yet 'unfinished' home system, so that I could begin to enjoy organ music at home. To that end, even if the recordings of the organ are completed, the Studer deck will undoubtedly be sold. So, spending several thousand $$ on mics would be counter-productive, and is simply not an option.

My question: I know that much professional grade photo, video, and audio equipment is available for rent, so I thought that mics like the DPA 4006-TL's might also be available to rent. Is anyone monitoring this thread aware such rental potential, or how I might track down potential sources?

Thanks for your reply/comments.
Muffcook

[CPTenorII]

I know of 2 places here in NYC, but you will need either a credit card deposit (full value) or inland marine equipment insurance.

1. Jim Flynn Rentals- Manhattan
(ask for Erik- tell him Colin referred you from here)

2. DreamHire- Long Island City, Queens
(ask for Morris or chris- tell him Colin referred you from here)

Thanks!

Originally Posted by muffcook

Hello:
Two days ago our church hosted a dedication concert to celebrate completion of the installation of its new pipe organ (with antiphonal organ). As used here, 'new' indicates new to us. The instrument was assembled by the Organ Foundation of Mercer Island, WA from a console, controls, blowers, chimes, and 1,300+ pipes, all of which were originally parts of other organs. The entire restoration, building, and installation process required 6,000+ hours of skilled volunteer labor spread over several years. The end result is simply stunning!

At the beginning of the installation process, I contacted our primary organist to discuss the potential of completing one or more recording sessions, with the intent of producing CD's for the enjoyment of church members, and for sale to the general public if the results of the recording project were of appropriate quality.

Based upon his enthusiastic endorsement of the idea, I began to do some research to try to gather the information and knowledge necessary to attempt the project. I have a Studer A807 studio tape deck in excellent condition which I would hope to use for the project. It is a 1/4" half-track 3-speed machine, with separate time code track; 7.5/15/30 ips options; Dolby HX Pro headroom extension; balanced inputs/outputs. However, I have no microphones, and they were the primary reason for my internet search. So, to keep this inquiry at a reasonable length, I will simply say that all searches eventually pointed to the DPA 4006-TL mics as 'THE' choice, and this thread seems to confirm that fact.

The dilemma lies in the cost of the mics. Until the organ project arrived on the horizon, I was painfully considering selling my Studer deck. Although it is unquestionably the highest quality component in my home audio system, I simply do not envision using it in that context. And selling it would allow me to complete the as yet 'unfinished' home system, so that I could begin to enjoy organ music at home. To that end, even if the recordings of the organ are completed, the Studer deck will undoubtedly be sold. So, spending several thousand $$ on mics would be counter-productive, and is simply not an option.

My question: I know that much professional grade photo, video, and audio equipment is available for rent, so I thought that mics like the DPA 4006-TL's might also be available to rent. Is anyone monitoring this thread aware such rental potential, or how I might track down potential sources?

Thanks for your reply/comments.
Muffcook