DAW that allows recording automation WITH audio?

[Bixby]

I do mainly live recording and broadcast. Up to this point, we've generally recorded multis onto a HD24xr and Digital Performer, as well as doing the live 2-mix with a small mixer. However, if I want to go back and re-mix (usually in ProTools), we have to spend the time setting up the session. This is really inefficient, if we're just fixing a couple of things.

It occurred to me that it might be possible to use the mixer in a DAW to do the mix; and if we could record the automation at the same time, setup for a re-mix would be virtually nonexistent. Yes, I realize the huge can of worms this opens up from a reliability standpoint.

But it seems as though no DAW allows actual recording of automation while it is recording audio. Am I missing something here?

And of course, I need the rig to be as small as possible, with 24 channels.

Thanks.

[dannygold]

I've never tried that, but if it's true that your DAW won't reocrd audio and automation at the same time you could make a dummy track next to every real track and record automation on IT, then just slide the audio onto the automated track. Messy, but workarounds usually are.

[Bixby]

Yeah, using Aux tracks and copying afterwards does seem as though it'll work, but it's messy for sure.

It's just strange to me that the major DAWs don't allow this.

Thanks for the idea!

[aaron_in_sf]

I've never tried it, but doesn't Sequoia support this?

aaron

[huub]

Well, with protools and a venue or icon, or merging pyramix with a ramses,
you can do exactly this.. but it's costly!
Any Daw that can do realtime mixing with a controller should do the trick really..
and you don't need to record automation, you just have to make snapshots after every song..

[Bixby]

Originally Posted by huub

Well, with protools and a venue or icon, or merging pyramix with a ramses, you can do exactly this.. but it's costly!

yes, over my budget, for sure! And my size limits as well.

Originally Posted by huub

Any Daw that can do realtime mixing with a controller should do the trick really.. and you don't need to record automation, you just have to make snapshots after every song..

I guess I'm not familiar with snapshots... does PT have this functionality? Snapshots will capture volume changes throughout a song? And taking snapshots is a seamless process - it doesn't interrupt audio, etc.? This is a live concert...

thanks again, I'm going to check out sequoia/samplitude...

[huub]

Just checked pyramix, you can both write automation and make snapshots during recording.. You can connect a mackie control to pyramix (you would needthe native version, pyramix with pyramix dsp is a lot of cash) but you need to purchase a remote control and an enhanced midi key.

[huub]

Oh, actually logic also does this no problem, and is easily capable of 128 samples latency with some interfaces, it also works with a mackie control or euphonix mc mix right out of the box..

You just set automation to latch or write or whatever and hit record..

[roonsbane]

I do it several times a week using Nuendo. This rig is an f-ing powerhouse. It is essentially an HP core duo Laptop using an RME digiface fed by Apogee AD16x with a Mini DAC for monitoring. I use the frontier controller but hope to get a mackie universal controller or Euphonics if they become available for windows. It has been extremely reliable! I have recorded up to 130 tracks just to see if it would do it. It did 26 recorded tracks at a time while all other tracks were playing while only hitting 16% CPU usage. This was with a very fragmented HD which was spiking at 40% but still had no hiccups. I have never even come close to pushing it even running several IR verbs and many other plugs. I also run an analog 2 mix as well from my ATI's to a separate Soundevices 722 just in case but knock on wood have never needed it. I always also run two live simultaneous reference CD's for the clients from the Nuendo mixer. I have also controlled Nuendo hundreds of times using a O2R96 which integrates extremely well with each other. Simultaneously recording automation is never an issue, even while recording many tracks. By the way, my computer is two years old at this point, I am sure they are much faster by now, but I don't really feel the need to upgrade I have been so content. I will be switching to Sequoia once I find the time to buckle down and read its beastly manual.
Best!
Cameron

[Bixby]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

I do it several times a week using Nuendo.... I will be switching to Sequoia once I find the time to buckle down and read its beastly manual.

Thanks Cameron, that's promising. Is it just as easy as enabling automation writing during recording in Nuendo? I scanned the manual and it seemed to say you could only write automation while playback (just like the PT manual says...). I wish there were a good way to demo Nuendo...

Also, can you share why you're switching to Sequoia? I know very little about it, other than its fabled crossfade abilities.

I'd likely be using a MacBook Pro and possibly the Euphonix McMix controllers.

[roonsbane]

Hey Bixby,

All you do is click the "W" for Write key on the track you want to write automation on. This can be done while recording a first pass. I am fairly certain PT will do it as well though I have never actually done it live. Though I have never tried that specifically of course I do also use PT at work when I have no other choice.

I am switching to Sequoia exactly for the fabled crossfade editor. I prefer Nuendo any day over PT for many reasons. Mostly the sonics. If you don't need the crossfade editor for classical style editing then Nuendo is great and I love wavelab as well. I haven't appreciated Steinbergs responses to well known bugs specific to this kind of editing. They won't even say if they consider it a priority or give any kind of estimate as to when or if it might be fixed. Since folks doing classical style editing are the only people that care Steinberg seems to have made fixing these a very low priority. Plus all of plug in processing I have used so far using Sequoia has really really sounded great! The onboard EQ is by far the closest thing I have found to using an analog EQ with practically non of the usual strange artifacts.

With Sequoia I think it's safe to say from their high end mastering users that it has top sonics, and being able to take a project all the way from multitrack to CD within one program is amazing. Plus you get Nuendo like high speed bouncing and the crossfade editor without the bug that nuendo includes. My two cents. I hope this helps.
Cameron

[sonare]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

With Sequoia I think it's safe to say from their high end mastering users that it has top sonics, and being able to take a project all the way from multitrack to CD within one program is amazing. Plus you get Nuendo like high speed bouncing and the crossfade editor without the bug that nuendo includes. My two cents. I hope this helps.
Cameron

Don't forget the DDP function that allows you to send a master to replication in the most robust method possible. If a DDP opens you know it is OK, and if it doesn't then do another one-- but I've never had one to fail.

Rich

[filin]

You can automate while recording in Ableton Live, as well.

So it's just Pro Tools where this isn't possible?

[Bixby]

I can confirm this is not possible with PT LE - once you record-enable a track, the automation options become grayed-out. Can anyone confirm this with HD as well?

Thanks again.

[MBishopSFX]

I've written automation while recording audio on the SADiE workstation. The best part of SADiE's automation is the data is written to the soundfile.. If you move the soundfile, the automation data goes with it.

.

[matthewd]

I like Michael have done this on Sadie - in fact I did it today on a webcast of a college choir in Cambridge whereby the results get posted within hours of the recording. Recording automation live means most of it is fine with just the occasional tweak required before doing a no real time bounce to MP3. I have the LRX so there is a tactile control surface right there and the laptop just sits on top. I am so relieved Sadie got bought by Prism because this system is perfect for what I do and I would have hated it not to have been supported.

Matt Dilley

Originally Posted by Bixby

I do mainly live recording and broadcast. Up to this point, we've generally recorded multis onto a HD24xr and Digital Performer, as well as doing the live 2-mix with a small mixer. However, if I want to go back and re-mix (usually in ProTools), we have to spend the time setting up the session. This is really inefficient, if we're just fixing a couple of things.

It occurred to me that it might be possible to use the mixer in a DAW to do the mix; and if we could record the automation at the same time, setup for a re-mix would be virtually nonexistent. Yes, I realize the huge can of worms this opens up from a reliability standpoint.

But it seems as though no DAW allows actual recording of automation while it is recording audio. Am I missing something here?

And of course, I need the rig to be as small as possible, with 24 channels.

Thanks.

Tracktion can do this. I'd go with Tracktion 2 for stability.
m@

[Berolzheimer]

Originally Posted by Bixby

I can confirm this is not possible with PT LE - once you record-enable a track, the automation options become grayed-out. Can anyone confirm this with HD as well?

Thanks again.

I just tried it on the 7.2 hd system I'm working on and sure 'nuff, couldn't do it. I'll try it on 7.4 when I get home.
running the tracks through auxes & automating them is certainly a work around, & you don't have to copy the automation, you could just leave it that way. But it would use up a lot of your busses & DSP and besides, it just shouldn't be necessary.

[Bixby]

Well, that's just one more push away from PT!

Thanks to everyone for their input. Glad to know others are successfully doing this.

[MBishopSFX]

32-tracks, 96K laptop setup with full automation:

http://www.sadie.com/products/prod_lrx2.html

[siriusbliss]

Originally Posted by aaron_in_sf

I've never tried it, but doesn't Sequoia support this?

aaron

Yes, Samplitude and Sequoia both support this.
various automation modes possible during recording/playback, or manually.

I run Samp. on an Alienware laptop with an older RME Multiface I

Greg

[valleysound]

DP will record automation at the same time as audio. I just tried it!