Big Band Recording - Last Minute

[lucey]

So I woke up today and decided to stop mastering! and to go and record my step sons big band, in their final rehearsal for the year. City-wide group of 8th to 11th graders that really play ... Mingus, Ellington, Basie, etc. I have a few hours to set up here, then set up there in 30 mins.

There are 15-20 sax/tromb/trumpet in 3 lines on stage left. Piano is far right, Drums next over. Bass behind drums, with amp. Guitar with amp between drums and horns. So they are lateral in a wide room.

This will be an 8 channel recording.

My main question is about the stereo ribbon option ... are the rear artifacts going to be a plus or a pain for a large band in this set up?


* 2ch for horns - SDCs or a stereo ribbon that would hear the room to the rear?

* 2ch for drums - a low and high mic, or a stereo ribbon that would hear the horns to the side and rear?

1 or 2 for piano (upright)
1 for bass - the amp or the bass
1 for guitar - amp


Any other ideas or tips?


thanks for the prompt reply,

[ajfarber]

Okay, only 8 inputs, right? This is what you do.

Put the stereo ribbon in front of the horn section. Add 2 mics back in the trumpet section. Kid trumpet players will need the extra mics for solos and when they use mutes. So that's now 4 mics total for the horns.

1 mic in front of the drum set will capture the entire set.

1 sdc in the bridge of the bass, (if it is elecric bass, mic the amp)

1 mic on the piano will do.

1 mic on guitar amp (unless it is suppose to be acoustic rhythm guitar, then you must mic the instrument).

If you need to discuss this further, pm me.

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by lucey

go and record my step sons big band, in their final rehearsal for the year.

Given that it's a rehearsal, can we assume that it's in the band room? Which probably wont have much room noise to pick up. In terms of audience interaction(A/C, planes, hallway chatterboxes on the other hand). Or are they rehearsing in a theatre, or at the show site (dress rehearsal)?

I'm more of a minimalist. I'd say a stereo pair(or two) for the room. And a stage mic for soloists. And hopefully the band plays with good enough ballance, with a room that helps towards that end. But then again it's jazz band so soloists may or may not play to the mics. Requiring each soloist to have their own mic(s).

[lucey]

Sounds good ... thanks for the fast answer. I sense you've done this before.


So a few specific questions ...

What height for the stereo ribbon and how close to the saxes?
What height for the trumpets stereo SDCs? And just place them in between the tromb/trump? In a stereo pair or wide?

For the bass, is there a photo somewhere of the SDC mic in the bridge? When I record acoustic bass generally it's with a LDC 1 foot away on the high side. Worst case I could mic the bass amp.

For the drums, a LDC 1-2 feet in front of the toms is good?

For the piano, I have that AMT half cardioid piano mic, I suppose that could be hung and taped to the harp in an upright?

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

Given that it's a rehearsal, can we assume that it's in the band room? Which probably wont have much room noise to pick up. In terms of audience interaction(A/C, planes, hallway chatterboxes on the other hand). Or are they rehearsing in a theatre, or at the show site (dress rehearsal)?

I'm more of a minimalist. I'd say a stereo pair(or two) for the room. And a stage mic for soloists. And hopefully the band plays with good enough ballance, with a room that helps towards that end. But then again it's jazz band so soloists may or may not play to the mics. Requiring each soloist to have their own mic(s).

It's in lateral black box with theater seats on 3 sides. The soloists wont turn to mics, too much to ask. A quiet room that sounds pretty good, but there's no way to do much with 2 mics IMO.

[Corran]

If you can, spot the saxes, they are the quietest section. Else place the stereo ribbon as to pick them up well. I've used something close to that setup to good effect.

[Mazo Audio]

I'm more of a minimalist. I'd say a stereo pair(or two) for the room.

My 2 cents, I'd echo the stereo mic for the room. Everytime I "track out" a big band, I find I have to do a LOT of mix time trying to get it to sound right. I've discovered that spending some time positioning a stereo pair gets me much further, easier. Since it doesn't sound like you're getting paid much, spare your wrist from tryng to mouse this mix into shape! My experience with blumlein is that the front sounds are loud enough to usually negate any backslap problems. I usually work in decent rooms though. Drum mic? Your piano mic will be your drum mic.

I'd get there, put up the stereo, have a few spots ready, record a bit of warm up, listen back and position the spots as necessary. You'll probably refine this method as you continue to work with this band.

[Han]

Actually you need three things: a good band, a good sounding room and a good stereo mic like the AKG C24.

[Shadow_7]

I agree. Good Band, Good Recording, Good Room. As a Trombonist that normally plays in a Jazz Band. I don't get to hear how it sounds from the audience's perspective. Except on rare occassion, when I'm late and don't really have "time" to savor the moment. I've got to trust the directors perceptions and corrections on what I need to adjust to benefit the group. Dynamic level, articulation, phrasing, what ever. Stuff which I could easily understand and know just how much to adjust, if only I could hear what I'm doing from the audiences perspective. That is what I think is lacking from most recordings. Just a simple stereo image of the event.

Sure, record everyone individually and fix the balance and stuff in mixing. And when you show it to the band, they'll go who's that? That's you, no it aint. Yeah it is. No it aint. Yeah it is, If you say so. Concessions of course if you're trying to make a demo to get gigs, or a marketable product from a less than optimal space. But when I look back at the recordings of the Jazz Band that I was in, in college, that were done in a studio environment, it brings back no memories of being in that group. There were certain characters and characteristics that separated that band from others that just get snuffed out when someone mixes it all up to sound like every other band out there. Great recording, great group, sure... What I did was somewhere in that mix... I dunno?

[leadplayer]

ajfarber has it right...
As a trumpet player myself, have recorded my college jazz big band
like this over a hundred times. Spotting the rhythm for presence is good.
I position a stereo pair in front of the horns as if there is no rhythm section.
Don't worry about symmetry regarding the whole ensemble. (I've used SF-12, SM-69, Valvets, KM-84s, etc.) I aim the pair/mic to "look" at the
lead trumpet (helps if they're on risers, otherwise the sound of the brass will
blur as they play into other peoples backs). The lead trumpet is the "voice" of the band (listen to any Woody Herman, Buddy Rich, Thad Jones-Mel Lewis). (Woody's Winners just reissued on Mosaic-- amazing live recording of the band-- shows how "players" mix...not engineers). With the pair probably ending up 7 or 8 feet high it still gets plenty of front row from being closer.
(tilt to taste is more sax presence needed.)
--Brian...enjoy yours posts in mastering section...great insight!

[Han]

Have you clicked on mij C24 link? Really the very best bigband sound I've been hearing since many years and only a single stereo microphone in a great sounding chapel. And of course a killer sounding bigband. If you have the opportunity to listen, do it. (The James Version, by the Harry James bigband, 1976 Sheffield Labs Direct Cut Vinyl)

[springer]

Originally Posted by Corran

If you can, spot the saxes, they are the quietest section.

I beg to differ - at this age group saxes usually can overpower trumpets. Andy's suggestions are spot on after having done many of these. The room makes all the difference in the world - always try to get the best room possible. I would say after the kids get into college the brass definitely trumps reeds in power, but not at this age.
Good Luck

[Corran]

Oh yeah forgot about that "young sax sound"

[lucey]

Thanks for the ideas, and I'm happy to see some other discussions cropping up ... here's the reality on my end:

My dying father was sick yesterday, so after much help from you all here and some phone time as well from ajfarber, my live rig ended up being a Korg DSD into an AEA R88. No time to do more. Turns out that was just fine as three kids didn't show, and the room was not as I expected ... it was a nightmare. Carpeted, low dropped tile ceiling, long and crowded, reflective, muddy mess. Oh, and they didn't play very well either!

The band usually makes an oval in this practice room, so I had them open it up such that the R88 could be at the open end, with the saxes (too close) on the L, the rhythm center, the trumpets far right and trombones (too close) on the right. The recording is split up this way ... very odd. And yes, the saxes were loud.

I considered placing the mic inside the circle ... but I'm not sure how the back side of ribbons would work in this context. I'm thinking they'd be playing out of phase with the ambient sound from the (aargh) concrete walls.

The recording works as a document, sufficiency was honored. No more. Next week I might add a little mixer and 2 mics for the drums/bass/piano at the far end of the oval, but I'm not sure. I hope they play better next week for sure. The room sounded so odd I'd think hearing intonation was an issue for them?


'Intermission Riff' - Jazz Youth Workshop 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th graders

[Shadow_7]

From my experience in such groups as a player. You do NOT want to put them in a configuration which they are not used to. Even playing outdoors can be disorientating to those not used to doing so.

[Lori]

I did a recording some what similar to this, here is what i did:

I got a pair of AKG C414's and put them in figure 8 modes. Put them in x/y. Then I got the band and positioned them around the mics until I got the sound i wanted. I just used my ears. It turned out this way: the sax in front center more leaning towards the rights, lead trumpet on left front, other backing trumpets same side behind him over his shoulder, trumbone on right behind sax over shoulder and drummer in center far behind, trumbone in front left of drum kit (he got a supporting mic). I did some mixing, and mastering and everything sounded great. I got the live feel and everyone did a great job just stepping close when it was there solo and stepping back a few steps into there place when they were done. These were teens. The room was okay, not the best sounding but large.

[Han]

Well, yesterday I had a bigband recording. A leader for a TV program, less than 1:30 long. Preparation time some four hours which I did at night.

Recording took four hours because these guys aren't professionals and firstly almost everybody was out of tune, which took me quite some time to go round with my tuner device. Then the drummer didn't like my perfect sounding Premier Genista kit and so I had to remove it so he could put his drumkit on the drumriser.
And no, it didn't sound better, on the contrary, but who am I?

The pianist didn't like the grand piano because he wasn't used to play a grand, so the Roland digital piano he had brought with him had to be installed. This piano sounds very bright and is out of tune. Most digital piano's are a little out of tune btw, try a D chord in the +1 position.

Well, we recorded the fragment some eight times and did a couple of overdubs, vocals and first trumpet. It sounds wonderful though. This afternoom it took me another 1.5 hours to clear up the place. But a big band is always a challenge for me, I love it.

For who's interested:

Kick: D12E
Snare: M201
OH: C451 x2
Bariton sax: MXL V69M
Tenor sax 1: Neumann M149
Tenor sax 2: MXL V77
Alto sax 1: MD441
Alto sax 2: MD441
Trombones: MD421 MK1 x4
Trumpets: M260 x4 (the very old M260's)
Piano: DI x2
Bass, MD421 in front of speaker
Room: SP B1 x2 in ORTF
Vocal: M149

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Han

For who's interested:

Kick: D12E
Snare: M201
OH: C451 x2
Bariton sax: MXL V69M
Tenor sax 1: Neumann M149
Tenor sax 2: MXL V77
Alto sax 1: MD441
Alto sax 2: MD441
Trombones: MD421 MK1 x4
Trumpets: M260 x4 (the very old M260's)
Piano: DI x2
Bass, MD421 in front of speaker
Room: SP B1 x2 in ORTF
Vocal: M149

Under normal conditions I would never mic everyone. A band is better at balancing themselves than a mix engineer. But when you've got an amateur or student group, it couldn't hurt.

My "normal" big band setup would be:
5 saxes in a circle around an omni LDC, or 1 ldc for the altos, 1 ldc for tenors and 1 for the baritone. Spot mic flutes, clarinets as needed.

4 trumpets with a ribbon placed inbetween for a total of 2 mics.

3 or 4 trombones with ribbons. placed as trumpet mics are placed.

1 ldc in piano.
1 sdc on guitar (acoustic) or 1 ribbon on amp if electric
1 sdc on bass (no DI or amp mic)
1 ldc on drum set with 1 sdc for hh/snare.

that's a total of 12 mics, or as little as 10.