Recording concert w/ PT... video to be shot in HD... what's my framerate?

[Mertmo]

Hey everyone. My first visit to the remote forum!

OK, I'm recording a concert tomorrow night with my mobile 003/macbook pro rig. The concert will be shot with HD video. What frame rate should my ProTools session be set for...?

This is my first remote recording in which I need to consider the video and the post production needs. Also the first recording on my new rig. I've been using ADATs up to this point. Along those lines, anything special I should know regarding recording a 2 hour take? (or longer...)
I know ideally I would be synced to the "blackburst" master video clock, but I'm not sure that's going to be a reality on this deal, so I'm mainly just worried about getting the framerate right in ProTools and making sure I get a smooth uninterrupted long take.

Thanks in advance!

[Gerax]

I'm not sure about the frame rate, but I tell you something: as much as your Macbook rig can be stable and rock solid GET A BACKUP RECORDER. One crash is enough to spoil you for the rest of your recording career if at the end of the gig you say to your client "Sorry...the computer crashed...I couldn't record the show..."
Also, be sure to get additional material (from rehearsals) that you'll be able to use for edtis and to fix little things here and there. Are you sure there won't be a break in between the 2 hours show? If it does, stop there, you never know. Also, I'm not sure a Pro Tools session can last that long, for the limit in the .Wav file format of 2Gb. 1 Hour at 16/44.1 is 740 Mb, so 2 hours is 1,44Gb, and at 24 bits is almost 1,9Gb...you are reaching the limit, a few minutes more an you're out...
Camers will need to change tape as well..Try to coordinate with the video crew as bast as you can. Ideally you'd want to share the same timecode and clock source (that you should derive from their blackburst generator), so synchronization in post will be easire.
I guarantee, there's not an easy way to do this, jus preparation and lots of work (especially in post and editing when the picture editor will offset picture cuts at will "because it looks right" and you'll be thrown out of sync with music...) but in the end it's a really rewarding gig.

Have fun.

L.G.

[locosoundman]

Can LE even work with timecode?

You can get the master clock with the 003, but as far as I can recall, there is no support for SMPTE at all in PT LE unless you have DV Toolkit (maybe they changed this with v7?).

I second the need for a backup recorder. I have used a Mac laptop for years recording into PT LE. As stable as it is, I can still count on one hand the number of times the laptop has crashed in the middle of a concert (and I used ADAT before that; I can tell you lots of stories of THAT failing in the middle of concerts).

Fortunately, I have always had some sort of redundant recorder that was completely independent of the computer - even if it was only a 2-Track.

[Mertmo]

Great info guys, thank you.

I did not know about the 2gb .wav file limit. Yikes, that could be cutting it close at 24 bit! I am going to test my rig today and just let it record 16 tracks for as long as it can just to see what it does.

I think that locosoundman is right, the 003 doesn't support timecode... no DV toolkit for me :( that will be later when I can afford it!

Good advice about the backup recorder, I will bring an ADAT and get at least a stereo mix or maybe a few submixes. Of course that will have gaps since I'll have to change tapes but hey... it's a backup.


Anyone else on the framerate issue?

[Gerax]

The capability to record synched to timecode isn't DV Toolkit dependant: DV Toolkit only adds the timecode ruler to the timeline. PTLE supports TC in all of its rates.. You only need to slave the 003 to MIDI Time Code, and you can do that by using any synchronizer that converts SPMTE to MTC (like Digidesign's own Universal Slave Driver, or other like the MOTU MIDI Time Piece), set the correct frame rate (the same as the video shot) and lock PT to external clock via SPdif or ADAT (that carry the clock info from your external master).
This way you are locked to video and shouldn't have any issues. I found that Clocl is more important than TC, as you want to have the same speed sample by sample. TC only gives yoy a positional reference.

Hope this helps

L.G.

[Mertmo]

Gerax -

Thanks for the accurate info. Some of this is above my head, I'm a total newbie at this and I just landed this gig last minute. I don't have a device like you describe for converting SPMTE to MTC.

BUT: if I could run across one, I am confused by this:

lock PT to external clock via SPdif or ADAT (that carry the clock info from your external master).

I would be using a midi device to translate a clock source, but I would be locking via SPdif or ADAT...? don't get it. please elaborate?

Sorry I am lost with some of this stuff, I really appreciate the help. I am probably not the most obvious choice for this gig, but I need the money and I am very excited to learn some new skills and get into the 'audio for post' thing. Making records is getting tedious and boring lately...

Hopefully I am not in over my head with this gig.

[jammybastard]

Framerate isn't your concern, that's for the video engineers to sort out.
You need to worry about all the things people have mentioned above.
Not being able to sync to a master clock generated by the video truck/flightpack isn't the end of the world.
On most remotes I work on the video tape room and the audio truck will clock to time of day. Not sure if you can do that in LE, but it's worth a try if you don't have direct sync with the cameras.
Just make sure you get it all.

[psycho_monkey]

to be quite honest, providing you're at the right sample rate for the master production (almost certainly 48k), you should be able to record free and just line it up later to the video.

I've done this on more than one large concert - and made a recording myself where this is how we worked. No problems at all.

In theory, you should all reference the same video clock (in your situation, you'd need something to sync to video and give you word clock to lock to) but in practice it'll work fine without.

frame rate here is to do with positional reference as someone else has pointed out. This isn't the same as locking to smpte/adat etc for SAMPLE reference.

jammyb is right - just make sure you get it all! (in fact - even if you could record online to SMPTE, it wouldn't be the best idea to do this - if the code stops for any reason, PT will drop out!).

[tnjazz]

24bit/48kHz is what you should try to record at (or 16/48 if HDD space or processor speed limits it). if the video crew hasn't contacted you yet to discuss TC then I would guess they will sync manually in post. might be worth asking though. a mono track at 24/48 is about 4 hours before it hits the 2gb limit. so unless the show/set is longer than 4 hours without a break you will be fine.

[Gerax]

OK, let's clear a few things out, Timecode and Word Clock are two different things: Timeocde, as the word puts it is a positional reference of where we are in the timeline; without getting too elaborate just make sure you're working at the same frame rate of the video crew, just because so you are using the same meter, and 1 second of audio and video contain the same frames, and linking the right audio to a certain video clip will be easier in post, if TC is the same and stamped onto the audio file.
Second, clock source. This is more imporant, as clocking, be it from a WC generator or derived from Video/Black Burst it sets the speed we're going at. Locking to a video derived clock (you need a device capable of converting Video Black to Word Clock, again Digidesign USD or MOTU MTP are able to do this and convert SMPTE to MIDI Time Code as well) makes sure that audio and video are going at the same speed, and sync is properly maintained, with sample accuracy. Theoretically you could set your recorder at 48KHz (the video reference standard) and let it record, but I wouldn't do that in a professional scenario. One very little difference in the internal clock generators of cameras and audio recorder could result in a noticeable difference in the long run. If you get hold of some kind of synchornizer device I'd lock my PTLE rig via the clock signal embedded in the SPdif protocol (provided that the synchronizer has a SPdif output to lock to), and I'd feed MIDI Time Code to the MIDI IN of the Digidesign interface. If you work with Broadcast Wave files Time Code should be stamped onto the file itself and having an accurate audio/video sync in editing should be easier. Once in post Time Code just serves as a positional reference (and it's relative to the session's timeline) to coordinate with edits coming from picture department and the likes.

Hope it helps

L.G.

[Mertmo]

Wow, thanks everyone.

Well, I have barely heard from the FOH guy, much less the video crew. Luckily, I have a plenty long day at the venue tomorrow to get prepared, ect.

I did a little test today, the rig will record at 24/48 for a plenty long time, no worries there. I know that "professionally" I should be synched with the right clock, etc. like Gerax is describing. I wish I could pull off all the research and prep that would make that happen, *assuming* that the video crew is even up to that level of professionality. (I really have no idea) But the reality is, I just have to go in there tomorrow and worry about my sound recording going off without a hitch. I will make sure I am running at the same rate as the video crew for sure.

Seems like worst case scenario for synching in post is that you would have to cut the audio around every song and slide each song around in time so that the songs all work, and maybe you would have to do a little creative mixing/editing right around the spots where you cut...?

I might be doing the mix and I might not, so we'll see if I even have to worry about it!
I just don't want to screw the client by giving him something that is problematic. I'd love to go in there tomorrow and be super pro location guy, but this is very last minute, and I've never had to address these issues before. Just figured I would do some research and give it my best...!

Thanks so much you guys, I appreciate the help. I'll report back in with the story of tomorrow -

[jwh1192]

if noone has mentioned this as of yet ... please make sure you put a guide track onto one of the cameras or video decks (if separate)

if they have a stationary camera that would be the one to put your rough mix or at least kick/snare and vocal on ...

you did not mention what cameras they are using ... little HDV cams or big HD cameras ?

cheers and backup recorder of a different flavor please

[Mertmo]

cheers and backup recorder of a different flavor please

Please. It's a ****ing BACKUP recorder for christ's sake!!! Like so many before you, you just couldn't resist the opportunity to slam the ADAT on the internet. So predictable... I swear to god, the ADAT hate is easily one of the most annoying things about the internet recording culture. Last time I checked it really was just a digital recorder...

Uhh, back to the actual thread topic...

The show went great, everything went off without a hitch! ProTools ran fine, I got a nice long take with no interruptions. The uhh, backup recorder ran fine but I don't think I will need it.
As far as the video crew, they were just running two little HDV cameras renegade style, so I didn't have to worry about clocks or guide tracks or anything.

Now for some mixing!
Thanks everyone for the input! Especially the backup recorder thing. I had thought of it, but might have blown it off. All the input made me embrace some government style redundancy, I took two of everything!