Trying to acheive the perfect sound...

[jnorman]

okay - I do lots of chamber type recordings of duos, trios, solos: violin/piano, flute/piano, woodwind quartets, flute solos, etc, generally in a studio setting.

there is a recording of ulrike anton playing doppler's fantasie pastorale (flute/piano) that i use as my reference recording, and after several years of this, i still can hardly get close to that recording. i cannot tell exactly how that track was recorded.

last night i watched another amazing flute piano performance on youtube which was done in a beautiful auditorium, steinway grand and a couple of real pros playing. it was recorded with one of those schoeps fixed ORTF stereo mics hanging about 8-10 feet up and out from the players. from what i caould tell, that should have been a perfect setup to make a perfect live recording of the performance, but it surely was not that good a recording, and nowhere near as clean, open, and intimate as my refernce CD by ulrike anton. instead, it sounded distant and noisy and over reverbed in comparison.

it makes me think that a single stereo pair out front is really no the best way to record even a live duo, even though i know there are many purists out there that swear by that method.

on the flip side, i have read of several classical musicians and producers who have recorded entire CDs with nothing but a set of DPA 4061s mounted directly on the instruments which pretty much completely eliminate the effects of whatever room your are in. with careful PP, these recordings can sound very good and very intimate (i think bonnie rideout, the irish fiddler, records this way and she sounds pretty amazing), but often suffer from a lack of general cohesion within the group mix.

my typical method has been to individually mic each instrument, generally keeping the mics about 3-4 feet out no matter what it is, though i sometimes go closer to pianos, pedal harps, or acoustic guitars as those instruments seem to benefit from a closer perspective. unfortunately, this also often causes a problem with the piano sounding like it is in front of the mix which doesnt sound right, so i am always fighting a battle of getting the right sound vs getting a mix that sounds natural.

so, what are your thoughts on the best way to mic a small acoustic duo, soloist, trio, etc in a studio setting to acheive a intimate sound and a natural mix? thanks for any comments.

[Corran]

I think the ORTF pair is great, it sounds like the one on youtube was just too far away?

I NEVER close-mic every instrument in a chamber setting. Only in jazz. I occasionally have a spot mic on the piano when doing chamber music with louder solo instruments.

Something I've recently tried though that worked amazingly was running two stereo pairs at once. One cardioid pair in ORTF, and then one one pair of omnis in A-B (or an M-S pair with a fig8 and omni). Through careful blending of these to get your clarity from the ORTF pair and the bass response from the A-B mics, a great full-spectrum sound can be achieved. I think just an ORTF pair, with the very rolled-off low-end inherent to cardioids and distance micing, make the recording very un-intimate.

Does your reference recording have this nice low-end detail? That might be what you are missing.

[beyarecords]

You may find the audio samples located here of interest:

Simpson High Resolution Microphones

[JEGG]

Hi jnorman, I'm not trying to be annoying, but if you read your own post you will see that you have already hit upon this reality:

Different people get good results while using different methods.

And this leaves aside the whole question of what one or more listeners might report.

On the other hand, one writer seems to suggest that the way to a perfect recording is through the use of Simpson microphones. Who would have known the path to perfection is so blindingly obvious?

[Corran]

At least it wasn't andy_simpson trying to sell his mics! Not that he does pimp them or anything.

[sonare]

I tried for years to find a solution for recording a small chamber group, and finally tried an M-B jecklin disc with a pair of omnis-- in my case Schoeps CMC62S. Finally-- the sound of omnis with the imaging of ORTF.

Obviously there are variables, but the sound of a good pair of omnis is hard to beat, and the only thing I have found that comes close is a pair of Mk21 that is more flattering when the players are not first-rate. Backing off to keep the same overall sound perspective really helps.

Why not a spaced pair, you ask? Because it tends to exaggerate the imaging, while the jecklin maintains a chamber-size width.

Attaching 4060/61 will inevitable yield pan-pot stereo and instruments that are about as wide as a pencil, aside from sounding entirely too close. Remember, in classical the room is also an instrument. The "German method" for recording quartets, where there is a mic within 2 feet of each instrument, has a widely-spaced main pair to "glue it all together."

Rich

[andy_simpson]

Originally Posted by Corran

At least it wasn't andy_simpson trying to sell his mics! Not that he does pimp them or anything.

What I do recommend (with the vehemence & enthusiasm of a pimp) is the direct comparison between the source & the reproduction of the recording.

That is the only useful path towards 'perfect sound', even though it mostly serves to show us our limitations.

Without this comparison, we are talking about subjectivity.

Andy

[JEGG]

Hi Andy,

I just wanted you to know that my comment earlier was not meant to "knock" you or your microphones, it was only a comment on what I perceived to be as a rather simplistic answer to a question that was inherently complex. If the writer's link was to Neumann, Schoeps, Sennheiser DPA, or any other mic maker, I would have said the same thing.

I look forward to hearing your examples, when I have time-always an issue!