29.97 FPS versus 30 FPS frame rate

lildrummerboy70 · 22nd April 2008

I did a audio for video location recording yesterday. I recorded the audio at 24 bit/48k, but about halfway through the shoot I realized that I had not changed the frame rate from 30 FPS to 29.97 FPS. Is this going to be a problem (I am guessing that it is) and what do I need to do to change it?

hummer · 22nd April 2008

problem? not really. PITA? maybe.

depends on what you recorded to... audio will be fine, you just need to restripe the timecode. i would load the recording into your DAW, conform, then lay back to whatever recorder you used, feeding the new timecode with your DAW as generator.

dbssound1 · 24th April 2008

It can be fixed, but in this digital age can't we just eliminate 29.97, DF and NDF. It was a brilliant system for film and analog, but with the move to digital, do we really still need these antiquated time codes? I know hat some of the big film studios are still, and will continue to shoot film, but everything else should be 24,25,or 30fps.

Just my opinion!

Karl_Lohninger · 24th April 2008

29.97 is an NTSC thing and has nothing really to do with shooting film!
the problem arises when posting/editing on ntsc systems.

\best, Karl

dbssound1 · 24th April 2008

Karl,
I apologize, you are correct. I am just so use to synching TC to video and film guys that I forgot the standard was created for TV transmission when adding the Color subcarrier signal. I don't remember how (I don't do tons of film stuff) but I do remember that the DF and NDF did have something to do with film stock (to the best of my memory).

My statement still stands that in this digital age, we could and should Eliminate 29.97. It is antiquated and can be compensated for, however the FCC in their great wisdom decided to mandate digital television broadcast in the states in 2009, however left the 29.97 frame rate.

I have no scientific reason, or practical reason for not liking 29.97. I just hate that non-rounded number!

dfegad29.97!

drBill · 24th April 2008

29.97 IS 30 frame - but running at a different speed. I'd suggest getting a quicktime movie from the video guys, have them print a window burn on it. Import it into your session. Change your internal TC framerate from 30 to 29.97 (or 29.97 drop if they are doing dropframe). then, spot the movie to your timeline and make sure it is sync at the beginning, in the middle, and at the end. (Sometimes digitizing can drop a frame every once in a while. Make sure the QT movie is perfect and syncs perfectly to the frame to the timeline in your session. Extract the audio from the QT movie and put it on an audio track.

THEN:

Take your audio and move it so that it lines up with your QT movie audio. Look for some transient or something that makes it easy to line up. Zoom way in. Get it sample accurate. Boom. Done. it's easy and I can do it all in about 5 minutes. If it's your first time, it might take you 15.

Cheers,

bp

PS - if you had your DAW resolved to blackburst this is much, much more accurate than using the TC. it will be perfect and hold sync for as long as the program material lasts. That's IF (and sometime's it's a pretty large IF) the video recorders and you were both resolved to house sync (black).

You were resolved to black, right?? Even if you weren't, it's not a biggie. Just zoom in every 10 minutes or so on your program material and find a nice transient, cut the audio and re-sync to the video's audio track.

huub · 28th April 2008

What Dr. Bill said...

**Remoteness** · 5th May 2008

What huub said...

huub · 28th August 2008

Oh, and also, if you record BWav, it actually doesn't matter..
Bwav records at the beginning of the file, the numbers of samples since midnight, after telling your daw the framerate, it figures out the tc of the beginning of the wav..
So, if you record Bwav and sync to BB or use wordclock from the video sync generator, all is fine..
Well, there are actually some catches, but my brain refuses to think about this right now..

22nd April 2008	#1
lildrummerboy70 Gear addict Joined: Apr 2006 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 351 Thread Starter	29.97 FPS versus 30 FPS frame rate I did a audio for video location recording yesterday. I recorded the audio at 24 bit/48k, but about halfway through the shoot I realized that I had not changed the frame rate from 30 FPS to 29.97 FPS. Is this going to be a problem (I am guessing that it is) and what do I need to do to change it? __________________ Jason Latham Engineer and (sometimes) Producer JaeL Productions

24th April 2008	#3
dbssound1 Gear nut Joined: Feb 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 143	It can be fixed, but in this digital age can't we just eliminate 29.97, DF and NDF. It was a brilliant system for film and analog, but with the move to digital, do we really still need these antiquated time codes? I know hat some of the big film studios are still, and will continue to shoot film, but everything else should be 24,25,or 30fps. Just my opinion! __________________

24th April 2008	#6
drBill Gear Guru Joined: Jul 2006 Location: So Cal Posts: 11,509	29.97 IS 30 frame - but running at a different speed. I'd suggest getting a quicktime movie from the video guys, have them print a window burn on it. Import it into your session. Change your internal TC framerate from 30 to 29.97 (or 29.97 drop if they are doing dropframe). then, spot the movie to your timeline and make sure it is sync at the beginning, in the middle, and at the end. (Sometimes digitizing can drop a frame every once in a while. Make sure the QT movie is perfect and syncs perfectly to the frame to the timeline in your session. Extract the audio from the QT movie and put it on an audio track. THEN: Take your audio and move it so that it lines up with your QT movie audio. Look for some transient or something that makes it easy to line up. Zoom way in. Get it sample accurate. Boom. Done. it's easy and I can do it all in about 5 minutes. If it's your first time, it might take you 15. Cheers, bp PS - if you had your DAW resolved to blackburst this is much, much more accurate than using the TC. it will be perfect and hold sync for as long as the program material lasts. That's IF (and sometime's it's a pretty large IF) the video recorders and you were both resolved to house sync (black). You were resolved to black, right?? Even if you weren't, it's not a biggie. Just zoom in every 10 minutes or so on your program material and find a nice transient, cut the audio and re-sync to the video's audio track. __________________ Mindseye http://www.mindseyeprod.com IMDB Composer - Orchestrator Scoring & Mix Engineer - Music Editor

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22nd April 2008	#2
hummer Gear maniac Joined: Oct 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 150	problem? not really. PITA? maybe. depends on what you recorded to... audio will be fine, you just need to restripe the timecode. i would load the recording into your DAW, conform, then lay back to whatever recorder you used, feeding the new timecode with your DAW as generator.

24th April 2008	#4
Karl_Lohninger Gear nut Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 80	29.97 is an NTSC thing and has nothing really to do with shooting film! the problem arises when posting/editing on ntsc systems. \best, Karl

28th April 2008	#7
huub Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2005 Location: amsterdam Posts: 1,208	What Dr. Bill said...

5th May 2008	#8
Remoteness Super Moderator Joined: Aug 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 7,405	What huub said...

28th August 2008	#9
huub Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2005 Location: amsterdam Posts: 1,208	Oh, and also, if you record BWav, it actually doesn't matter.. Bwav records at the beginning of the file, the numbers of samples since midnight, after telling your daw the framerate, it figures out the tc of the beginning of the wav.. So, if you record Bwav and sync to BB or use wordclock from the video sync generator, all is fine.. Well, there are actually some catches, but my brain refuses to think about this right now..