Loudness Wars in Classical

[E-Tron]

Check out this article.
It's basically about how classical music today is too loud!! Is EVERYTHING getting louder?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/ar...ic&oref=slogin

[danbronson]

The people who complain about how bad music is 'today' are as loud as ever.

[aeonsound]

Some musicians in the brass and percussion sections resent being screened off from their colleagues, as if they were being ostracized.

so they should be, farting metallic show-offs they don't have to sit in front of a brass section giving it their hernia-busting all during a fortissimo section.

[miqer]

When I listen to Debussy on my Ipod on my way to work, I can't hear the quiet bits... But that way I drive safer (bicycle).

I'm missing the best parts though.

m.

[Schaap]

Originally Posted by E-Tron

Check out this article.
It's basically about how classical music today is too loud!! Is EVERYTHING getting louder?

Yes even the birds here nowadays. I remember about in the 70's that classical music was sometimes too loud especially for the musicians who sat before the horn section(trombones!). After years they had more hearing loss than other members of the orchestra.

Henk

[huub]

seranada schizophranaDanny Elfman, a commisioned piece by danny elfman, the filmcomposer, is one of the loudest pieces on my ipod!!It's as loud as N.E.R.D and almost as loud as the black album by Jay-Z.... It's only orchestra and choir!! Still sounds pretty good, but they went a bit too far in my opinion, it's too agressive sounding.. No obvious clipping or pumping though, so technically a pretty good job really..

huub

[Corran]

This is ********...wear ear protection if it's an issue. I play piccolo in a a couple symphony orchestras and I have the most "piercing" instrument in the orchestra. Nothing bothers me.

Of course I've already lost most of my hearing in my right ear due to a virus...

But still, cancelling a piece?! Ridiculous! tutt

[andy_simpson]

An average (RMS) noise level (SPL) of 97dB is not surprising.

What is surprising is the likely crest factor, with peak levels way above this RMS figure!

I recorded an orchestra last week, which within a 4 minute piece had a crest factor of around 30dB from 20 metres away (!) - in other words, the RMS loudness was on average at -30dB and the peaks were around -1.

However, this isn't directly 'loudness war', though it is often cited as a reason to compress classical music recordings.

Andy

[Thom]

And conductors are reconsidering the definition of “fortissimo.”

In my opinion this is one area that truly needs to be investigated. I have played in several orchestras and the variation is astounding. I also notice that conductors who are brass players will typically have a louder "ff" concept.

The second issue I think is coming from making classical music automobile friendly. Record companies want to pump up the levels for radio stations, etc. for driving music.

[E-Tron]

To me, obviously this isn't directly related to the loudness wars in recording, orchestras still rely heavily on dynamics, where as in pop music there is generally very little... but what's up with conductors trying push the fff envelope?
On the other hand, why would they adhere to the EU standards of dB ratings that apply mainly for construction sites?

BTW the topic title was meant to end in a "?" I wasn't trying to state anything - just wanted to share the article here.

[ghellquist]

Nice can of snakes beeing opened here.

Beeing an amateur bass trombone player I´ve read quite a bit on the history of my instrument. And it seems to me that brass instruments have become louder through history.

For UK based orchestras the largest change was probably immediately after the second world war. Dennis Wick, well-known first trombonist in LSO, has written about this in his book "trombone technique". At that time the american orchestras came to Europe and they played on so called "large-bore" instruments with vastly higher sound outputs when compared to the older types used in UK. And the UK player very soon adopted these instruments.

My conclusion from reading this is that when I play older music, say before 1950 or so in Europe, I have to diminish notated volumes quite substantially. A notated fff cannot really be played at all on my current large bore instrument. It should more properly be played on a small bore instrument where the fff starts to rip apart (the wanted brass sound) without making the audience and other musicians deaf.

Anyway, I´ve switched now, playing mostly on the bassoon. Difficult to be as loud on that instrument.

Gunnar

[Thom]

Originally Posted by E-Tron

To me, obviously this isn't directly related to the loudness wars in recording, orchestras still rely heavily on dynamics, where as in pop music there is generally very little... but what's up with conductors trying push the fff envelope?
On the other hand, why would they adhere to the EU standards of dB ratings that apply mainly for construction sites?

BTW the topic title was meant to end in a "?" I wasn't trying to state anything - just wanted to share the article here.

I agree and understand where you are coming from. But, there are over zealous conductors who like things to stand out much more (loud). Last season my orchestra did Beethoven 8. The first movement has the triple forte section in the opening recap. My conductor really wanted to push that to develop a contrast between the conclusion. Needles to say it was much louder than I have ever heard.

I think a good debate is good every now and then.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

Beeing an amateur bass trombone player I´ve read quite a bit on the history of my instrument. And it seems to me that brass instruments have become louder through history.

Nice observation! I wish the bass trombonist in the orchestra I play in would adhere to this. It is so god-awful loud sometimes, and played with a bad tone...not a good combination.

[boojum]

My selfish solution is chamber music.

[Everyman]

My snare drum is 115-120 dB consistently, measured at 1.5 feet from source...




Maybe I should file for workman's comp.

[BLP]

I know of one noise complaint situation here in the states, and it was solved relatively easily. There's a company (might have even been Wenger) that makes plexiglas blast shields that are slightly larger than a music stand that sort of boom out from their base. They can be adjusted to form a small, non-intrusive shield between rows of brass or the between the winds and brass. That, combined with tiered seating arrangement, seemed to help move the directional sound above the players in front, rather than directly at them. Same with perc; up and back a wee bit and things were much more pleasant in the surrounding brass and violins.

[K.C.]

Originally Posted by Everyman

My snare drum is 115-120 dB consistently, measured at 1.5 feet from source...

Maybe I should file for workman's comp.

Nah, just join a parade

[andy_simpson]

Originally Posted by Thom

I agree and understand where you are coming from. But, there are over zealous conductors who like things to stand out much more (loud). Last season my orchestra did Beethoven 8. The first movement has the triple forte section in the opening recap. My conductor really wanted to push that to develop a contrast between the conclusion. Needles to say it was much louder than I have ever heard.

I think a good debate is good every now and then.

I often wonder if this type of trend is related to the trend for relatively dry orchestral venues.

Certainly, acoustics can have a big effect on the perception of dynamics.

Of the newly or recently built orchestral halls I've visited, many of them show a tendency towards trying to be 'multi-purpose' (ie. dry) so that they can also be effective with a PA system & with other styles of music.

Andy

[Shadow_7]

I'm also a Trombone player. Mostly tenor bone. There's been a real trend in larger bored and louder trombones in recent decades. And they are quickly adopted as they're easier to play. There's also specialized mouthpieces (stainless steel) that makes it so you have to play much louder to get that edgy sound that the FFF is supposed to represent.

As far as too loud. I rather like a loud orchestra. But then again I rarely get front row seats. And as a trombone player, I like a nice loud trombone section. I like the CDs of Montreal and now Chicago because they have that robust low brass sound. I'm sure the chello's and others that have to sit in front don't like it. As long as it records well, I like it.