"Live classical concerts" any CD preparation tips? (applause)

[bove]

Many of us in this forum frequently make recordings of live classical concerts... I'd be interested in hearing ideas for making the post production easier, especially for those jobs that are not for release, like archival recordings or student recitals. I'm trying to figure out the best way to do a really quality job, without spending too much time on it.

Dealing with applause is something that seems to take too much time.

When you deliver a CD of the concert, do you:
Include applause?
Edit applause, making it shorter but realistic, so the CD flows better?
Fade applause to black after each track?
Adjust volume of applause? (with some microphone positions, applause is often very loud compared to the music)

[Jim vanBergen]

-Include applause. Live show gets audience response.

-Compress and sometimes gate the audience mics! For large, live broadcast events, I usually have a set of audience mics that I pull back during performance on my 2-mix, and push at the end of the pieces.

-Edit applause usually.

-I have found you have to make judgements for clients. Given that these are not for release, fading out makes perfect sense once it has been established if it makes it easier for you to simply fade the mics instead of editing in a DAW.

If the entire gig is simply stereo archival recording with a pair of mics, I ride those mics like the devil for applause/audience response, and do a fade out 'when it feels right', which is totally subjective. If you have nothing better to do, plenty of CD space and want to give the performer every last second of applause, then have fun. I need the burn time unless it's a broadcast or recording, in which case I capture ALL of it.

Hope this helps!

JvB

[travisgarrison]

A fair share of my gigs are "archival" concert recordings straight to stereo - classical and other styles. Unless the audience is in a rare mood, I will almost always edit the applause down to 10 seconds or so - 5 seconds at full volume with a 5 second fade to black. Anything longer than that tends to be annoying as a listener.

Depending on how much time I'm being paid to work on the project, I will sometimes decrease the applause level relative to the music level. In small spaces, the audience members are oftentimes closer to the mics than the performers, leading to an unrealistic balance.

I agree with Jim's assessment that a live event elicits a response from the audience and therefore will not edit out applause. In most cases, the applause will begin before the sound of the music completely dies away, leading towards very abrupt edits. In fact, I've only really encountered a handful of concerts where I could safely remove all applause. Typically only concerts where the audience wasn't really into the music.

[Corran]

Personally, I always leave all the applause, even after the last piece with call backs and such, where the applause can be a minute or longer.

But I do a lot of recitals for students so they like hearing the long applause.

I agree though that applause editing is tedious and boring. But you have to do it. On the other hand, I can just skip through the hour or more long waveform and know where I need to track by looking for the characteristic applause wavform!

[RickZ]

I frequently do archival recordings of a local college choir, and the director has asked that I cut out all applause. Sometimes it's not terribly artistic when I have to fade out so fast after a loud ending, but that's her preference.

FWIW,
Rick Z

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by bove

When you deliver a CD of the concert, do you:
Include applause?
Edit applause, making it shorter but realistic, so the CD flows better?
Fade applause to black after each track?
Adjust volume of applause? (with some microphone positions, applause is often very loud compared to the music)

Probably all of the above.

It also depends on the client.

I have one client who insists that all the applause is always left in.

Personally I prefer to edit the applause so it goes with the flow - sometimes removing, sometimes shortening, sometimes lengthening (though the last quite rarely) so the CD flows naturally. Too much applause can be trying on second or third listening.

Fading to black is a bit unnatural, but I have done it when I needed to.

I have not needed to compress - yet.

[Plush]

Loud applause that continues on and on is jarring and not needed in a listening copy.

You're right that it does take time to work with and edit applause. However, the result will be appreciated and show that the job is totally pro.

I edit applause by letting it play for 4-5 seconds and then making a fade out on it. The fade should be one where the levels drops down substantially and then fades out naturally. There should not be a dumped, quick inelegant fade.

In situations where the audience reaction is a lot louder than the music, I turn down the level of the applause from the outset of the applause and then do as above.

Of course, if the conductor or performer needs grease and wants to hear the audience reaction (marching like Caesar gazing in the mirror when he gets back home after the concert) then leave that applause running long until the end. However, this is a special circumstance and not recommended.

The point is don't have the listener diving for the remote volume control when the applause comes in.

[hughesmr]

I agree with Plush... I use a logarithmic fadeout curve for applause. I usually let the applause at the conclusion of the recital last longer and do a longer fade than for other pieces on the program. My fade duration is usually between 8-16 seconds, depending on what feels right.

Here's something else I do sometimes that makes college student recitalists happy. Since their audiences are usually kinda, shall I say, SPARSE, I will take applause clips from other parts of the recital and layer then on the existing applause for a piece to "boost" their attendance! It can be done tastefully (i.e. no cheering thousands for a bassoon recital) and works very well as long as there are no strong distinuishing identifiable things in the applause, like a big shout or something. Definitely makes for a nicer document than hearing a few random claps here and there!

[joelpatterson]

Everyone who hires you wants something different.

One guy is completely allergic to applause, so what I do is send the last second of music into a reverb, cut the send the instant before the applause starts, and then let the tail of the 'verb fade-- sounds as though the group sang their last note to an empty hall.

I always drop the levels right at the applause, it takes a little finessing to get this to sound natural, but whereas the music portion of the show might eventually hop up right to digital zero, you don't want the applause any louder than -12, maybe peaks at -6 for a crowd that goes totally nuts. (Truth is, if you just leave it as it is, a crowd roaring its approval is aLOT louder than singers on a stage!)

And, everyone needs a trademark, so after the last clap is clapped (as long as the CD has a spare two minutes of time left on it) I will let the crowd noise go on for one minute, and then do a long, slow, one minute fade to silence.

In this way, listening to the CD is like being at the show. If you were at the show, and the music ended, what, are you suddenly whisked to an airtight, soundproof room? No. You chat with your friends, you hear the crowd, you drift away...

[Corran]

I do that too joel, though on a smaller scale (10 seconds or so).

Speaking of "room on the CD," I did an orchestral and then a wind ensemble recording in the last month, both which were 82 minutes. Luckily overburning the CD worked and nothing seemed to go wrong...for now...

[fifthcircle]

Plush pretty much hit it...

I edit out all extraneous applause. No clapping between movements, at ends of pieces, I'll let it go for 4-7 sec (depends on how it builds), then fade over 10 sec or so with a cosine curve. Under the last half of the fade out, I fade in room sound using a standard root-linear curve. makes for a nice transition from applause to room.

Also, it is important to limit the volume of the applause. Don't want to blow up people's systems.

I never leave in all applause (unless requested by clients- usually for radio broadcasts where voice over work is needed) and I never fade to black inside a performance.

--Ben

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Plush

Loud applause that continues on and on is jarring and not needed in a listening copy.

You're right that it does take time to work with and edit applause. However, the result will be appreciated and show that the job is totally pro.

I edit applause by letting it play for 4-5 seconds and then making a fade out on it. The fade should be one where the levels drops down substantially and then fades out naturally. There should not be a dumped, quick inelegant fade.

In situations where the audience reaction is a lot louder than the music, I turn down the level of the applause from the outset of the applause and then do as above.

Of course, if the conductor or performer needs grease and wants to hear the audience reaction (marching like Caesar gazing in the mirror when he gets back home after the concert) then leave that applause running long until the end. However, this is a special circumstance and not recommended.

The point is don't have the listener diving for the remote volume control when the applause comes in.

I agree with all this.

But sometimes I edit the applause by cutting out the long middle bit - let it establish naturally then cut out the middle and edit to the end. It can be an art finding the best place for the edit so it's not noticeable; but easier for me now I have upgraded to Sequoia. This leaves the impression of a natural applause without sounding as if it's been edited.

A careful fade at the end to tidy up the back end is normally unnoticeable.

[d_fu]

What they said...
All I wanted to say has been said, esp. after the last one about editing applause... I often do that, too. You can skip the feet-stomping that way.

I usually just ask whether a customer wants applause or not. Some have very specific ideas (30 sec, then a 15 sec fade or so...).

[bongo]

I feel that the applause is part of the performance. I never fade it out. I will cut sections out to shorten it, but always have end as naturally as possible.

More importantly, what do you do about that person who is constantly coughing in the quiet parts?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by bongo

I feel that the applause is part of the performance. I never fade it out. I will cut sections out to shorten it, but always have end as naturally as possible.

Yup - what I do.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by bongo

I feel that the applause is part of the performance. I never fade it out.

Sometimes conductors just don't want it, though, e.g. after a passion oratorio. Better ask...

More importantly, what do you do about that person who is constantly coughing in the quiet parts?

[ghellquist]

Originally Posted by bove

I'm trying to figure out the best way to do a really quality job, without spending too much time on it.

Dealing with applause is something that seems to take too much time.

The software you are using and what short-cuts you have learned to use are important parameters here. I use Samplitude and a few simple work rules makes the process of handling fade outs of applauds quite fast and simple. A quick job with an 8 channel recording of an 1 hour concert, including mix and fade-in/fade-outs and CD burning really does not take more than 1 hour. After that of course, could come countless hours of honing and polishing.

Gunnar

[d_fu]

Just finding out that the applause in a recording I'm working on sounds much better when I mute the spot mics... Main mics only for the applause.

The audience is quite close to the stage here, though.

[bove]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

The software you are using and what short-cuts you have learned to use are important parameters here. I use Samplitude and a few simple work rules makes the process of handling fade outs of applauds quite fast and simple. A quick job with an 8 channel recording of an 1 hour concert, including mix and fade-in/fade-outs and CD burning really does not take more than 1 hour. After that of course, could come countless hours of honing and polishing.

Gunnar

Care to share some of your Samplitude "work rules" for fast and simple applause happiness?

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Just finding out that the applause in a recording I'm working on sounds much better when I mute the spot mics... Main mics only for the applause.

The audience is quite close to the stage here, though.

Interestingly I almost always mute the main pair and most spots and usually leave the choir pair (or any other two mics in the rear parts of the ensemble) on. Applause is less annoying and sounds a bit more distant this way. No need for volume automation.
Usually, though, I get rid of all the applause in classical music. Most of my clients don't seem to like applause on recordings.
It's another story in jazz.

[ghellquist]

I´ll try to share some of my work habits here. Most makes sense only in Samplitude.

1 - when tracking (ie recording) I simply let things run, save the VIP and turn off.

2 - first thing at home is to save as a new VIP. Generally, I have setup everything so that I do no changes at all to the original wave files, the only thing that changes are the VIP. I tend to work in stages, saving mix1, mix2 and so on in order to be able to go back. There are a few system settings (Y) you need to check, especially to write effects on separate files.

3 - My mixing work starts by delaying the spot mics. I want sound to reach the main mics first in order to keep the stereo perspective. I have found that the best place in the work process to do this is at the very beginning. You need to ungroup objects and then go into each object to set the proper delay. Takes a bit of work to describe exactly how to nudge the objects, I will save that for another time. There is even a "meter" or "feet" selection for the nudge step.

4 - now mark all objects and group them.
5 - set object mode to "link all tracks"

6 - Find the beginning of the first song. Trim about there (Ctrl-T). Select the new beginning object and press delete. The first uninteresting part is removed.

7 - now zoom in to do detail work on the first song. You have found the zoom selections I hope, save one with about 10 to 20 seconds on screen and another with about 10 to 20 minutes. Otherwise, in the advanced menu setting there are 10s and 10m already in place.

8 - Adjust the fade in by dragging the top left object handle. As all objects are grouped this will apply to them all. Universal mouse mode works best here. It is very easy to change the start position of the piece by moving the lower left object handle. Once everything is to satisfaction, I drag everything up to the start of the VIP.

9 - set the auto cross-fade mode.

10 - now zoom out. Find the end of the song and make a rough trim there (Ctrl-T). Same thing at end of applauses (Ctrl-T) again. I like to color the applauses in a different color (in the object editor, remember to press to all).

11 - finely adjust the fade-out of the applause. You need to drag the next part away a short piece on the screen in order for the program to understand that (despite the cross-fade mode) this is a fade-out. I like to use one of the curves, quite often lately the cosine. If the applause is too long or similar, this is a good place to cut it down.

12 - adjust the cross fade to a good position. (This will take a bit of experience, but it can always be adjusted later).

13 - now simply work through the full recording, trimming at song beginning and end and applause end. Removing the boring interludes between. It helps to have the "Snap to objects" option in project properties.

14 - save often.

15 - now is a good time to start actual mixing. Or generally this means more or less setting static levels on all the mics to get a good result. It can help to move the main pair mics down to a new track for the applauses with its own volume fader. But it is equally simple to leave them in place and adjust the object volume. Depends on how you setup effects among other things. The rest of the objects during applauses can simply be left in place and muted. (Select the objects with Ctrl-left click, Ctrl-O, check mute and press to all).

after a few steps it turns into time to make make a CD. Then I simply press one command (set CD markers on object edges) and removes the extra markers between song and applause. Burning CD is done from the program easily. For multiple copies I tend to make one CD in Sam and then copy that.

Anyway, hope this will be in any way helpful.

Gunnar

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Usually, though, I get rid of all the applause in classical music. Most of my clients don't seem to like applause on recordings.

Depends on the concert - I havea very lively performance of various arias and songs (Purcell etc.) here, where editing all the applause would make the CD sterile... Also, the applause sometimes just can't be edited, it's too close to the music. So I more or less leave it as it is...

Originally Posted by ghellquist

14 - save often.

If I may add to that... Don't just save, save with a new name/number manually every time you save, e.g. project1, project2, etc. Sometimes you find something went wrong somewhere, and tracks are not aligned, or whatever else, and being able to go back to an earlier version can be a life saver...

[siriusbliss]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

I´ll try to share some of my work habits here. Most makes sense only in Samplitude.

1 - when tracking (ie recording) I simply let things run, save the VIP and turn off.

2 - first thing at home is to save as a new VIP. Generally, I have setup everything so that I do no changes at all to the original wave files, the only thing that changes are the VIP. I tend to work in stages, saving mix1, mix2 and so on in order to be able to go back. There are a few system settings (Y) you need to check, especially to write effects on separate files.

3 - My mixing work starts by delaying the spot mics. I want sound to reach the main mics first in order to keep the stereo perspective. I have found that the best place in the work process to do this is at the very beginning. You need to ungroup objects and then go into each object to set the proper delay. Takes a bit of work to describe exactly how to nudge the objects, I will save that for another time. There is even a "meter" or "feet" selection for the nudge step.

4 - now mark all objects and group them.
5 - set object mode to "link all tracks"

6 - Find the beginning of the first song. Trim about there (Ctrl-T). Select the new beginning object and press delete. The first uninteresting part is removed.

7 - now zoom in to do detail work on the first song. You have found the zoom selections I hope, save one with about 10 to 20 seconds on screen and another with about 10 to 20 minutes. Otherwise, in the advanced menu setting there are 10s and 10m already in place.

8 - Adjust the fade in by dragging the top left object handle. As all objects are grouped this will apply to them all. Universal mouse mode works best here. It is very easy to change the start position of the piece by moving the lower left object handle. Once everything is to satisfaction, I drag everything up to the start of the VIP.

9 - set the auto cross-fade mode.

10 - now zoom out. Find the end of the song and make a rough trim there (Ctrl-T). Same thing at end of applauses (Ctrl-T) again. I like to color the applauses in a different color (in the object editor, remember to press to all).

11 - finely adjust the fade-out of the applause. You need to drag the next part away a short piece on the screen in order for the program to understand that (despite the cross-fade mode) this is a fade-out. I like to use one of the curves, quite often lately the cosine. If the applause is too long or similar, this is a good place to cut it down.

12 - adjust the cross fade to a good position. (This will take a bit of experience, but it can always be adjusted later).

13 - now simply work through the full recording, trimming at song beginning and end and applause end. Removing the boring interludes between. It helps to have the "Snap to objects" option in project properties.

14 - save often.

15 - now is a good time to start actual mixing. Or generally this means more or less setting static levels on all the mics to get a good result. It can help to move the main pair mics down to a new track for the applauses with its own volume fader. But it is equally simple to leave them in place and adjust the object volume. Depends on how you setup effects among other things. The rest of the objects during applauses can simply be left in place and muted. (Select the objects with Ctrl-left click, Ctrl-O, check mute and press to all).

after a few steps it turns into time to make make a CD. Then I simply press one command (set CD markers on object edges) and removes the extra markers between song and applause. Burning CD is done from the program easily. For multiple copies I tend to make one CD in Sam and then copy that.

Anyway, hope this will be in any way helpful.

Gunnar

Great stuff!

Have you ever tried the Spectral Cleaner in areas where the applause encroaches too much into the music?

Greg

*****

[Chorum Records]

I would go along very much with what my fellow countryman John Willett has said and tend to leave applause in, especially for archive recordings, which surely are supposed to preserve the whole occasion.

I record a lot of concerts, often of aspiring musicians who relish every note and treasure every clap! I do, however, leave the applause off one or two tracks per CD - partly because applause after every item can get monotonous, but also because if it's a solemn piece or has a very quiet ending, applause doesn't seem appropriate.

I sometimes cut chunks out of applause, as John does. I might also manufacture an applause from bits of others, if for some reason the audience didn't do a very good one or were slow to respond to an item!

Personally I always end live CD's with a long (10-second or so) fade-out, which will include a little post-applause noise (talking etc.) which people tell me is unexpected but rather nice. Perhaps that's because the discs are largely bought by people who were at the concert anyway.

Chorum