Anyone here do video, too?

[hughesmr]

Sorry if this is off-topic for this forum ... but it IS a location recording question.

I do all audio now (and not too badly, I might add) ... but I keep getting calls from the local music schools from students who need video/DVD of their recitals too. I've hesitated up to now, but am wondering how I might manageably add hi-quality video production to my current offerings via a reasonably priced investment, and NOT sacrifice the quality of the audio I currently provide. I'm thinking 2-ch Schoeps > mic pre > A/D direct into XLRs on a nice video camera, then dumping the source audio/video into a DVD A/V editing and mastering program.

Can such a thing be reasonably got? Or am I looking at mega-bucks? Any experiences or ideas welcome. Simply testing the waters and collective wisdom here....

[danijel]

it would be better if you asked this at the http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-production-forum/

BTW, i dont know of a camera with digital inputs.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by danijel

it would be better if you asked this at the http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-production-forum/

BTW, i dont know of a camera with digital inputs.

I feel Michael addressed his question in the right forum.
We do audio production for broadcast, video and film so I feel we are the right forum.

In any event, I have something to add to this discussion, but I'll need to get back to you on it, so hang in there and I shall tune back in.

[Corran]

This is something I've been wanting to get into myself. You don't need to have an input to a camera, in my opinion. Just sync up the video recording and audio later. I've done this several times and it works fine.

As for cameras, I have been thinking about picking up a small hard drive camera. I see them for about $600. One of those (or two for cuts) could be a good investment.

[videoteque]

Finally this a is a subject where I can contribute!!!thumbsup

Me being a reverse guy (not in the sexual sense!!!) I come from video and want to learn audio, I hope I can give you some nice advise.

The first decision is if you do video yourself or collaborate with someone. I recomend to TRY to collaborate, check your local video guys and try to find someone you go along well. Wedding photographers, film students, shortfilm directors, need sometimes audio guys too, so you may be a godsend to them and create a useful collaboration for both.

If you can't/don't want to find someone else and want to do it yourself here are some advises.

1) You can choose to go with one camera. It's cheap, you can start with 1000$, camera+tripod+wide angle adapter (yes, you want to see ALL the choir!).

BUY A CAMERA THAT RECORDS TO TAPE. Let me repeat this for you, buy a camera that records to tape. H/DV tapes cost 3$/€ and are a perfect backup.

If you choose a cheap HDV model like the Canon HV20 will set you back 700-800$/€. The new model is the HV30, it's more or less the same and costs more. Both have minijack inputs that are useless for good audio, you will have to sync your audio during editing. Hurry up to get a HV20!!!

The next jump are HDV cameras with XLR inputs, but here you are looking at 5x the budget. I would still recomend a Canon, the XH-A1, I am telling Canon because at this moment they are cheaper and offer as good quality as Sony or Panasonic.

If you are not in a hurry, wait 2009 and go Scarlet, 3K for 3K$, RAW recording, definitely not for the lover of presets and auto-functions!!!tutt

Place the camera in a tripod, put it in a central place, trying to get a panoramic view. If you go HDV (high definition) and your final delivery is DVD, during editing you can "simulate" editing, going from the wide shot to closer shots by zooming.

I highly recomend going Apple and FinalCut Express for this.

2) You can choose to go multi-camera. You start to look at some money here, 5K-6K it's a minimum.

BUY SOME CAMERAS THAT RECORDS TO TAPE. Let me repeat this for you, buy some cameras that records to tape. H/DV tapes cost 3$/€ and are a perfect backup.

You will place your cameras during the event, start recording and you just need to go change tape every hour. Edit it later, I highly recomend going FinalCut Pro for this. It has a multicam option that will simplify your life.


Now to finish let me tell you a story, a friend of mine wanted to buy a DV camera to rec her new born daughter. He is not a pro and I told him, buy a cheap DV camera with a brand (Sony, Panasonic or Canon), they are all more or less the same, the only important thing is that.... yes! it RECORDS TO TAPE. So he end up buying a camera that recorded to miniDVD-R. He regreted it all his life.... no! two weeks later he changed it for a camera that recorded to tape!

For whatever question, ask me, I am always informed about video technology, and at least I can return some knowledge to the forum!

For New Yorkers, see you in Poconos!

For Steve, I think my PMs don't arrive to you and yours don't arrive to me!!!

[David Spearritt]

We have done quite a few auditions for classical music students that demand DVD. I would counter the advice about getting a consumer miniDV cam that uses tape. No end of trouble with them, eating tapes during playback and firewire transfer, Canon Panasonic and Sony, you name it. For serious gigs we hire a semi pro camera from the local TV guys, tape transports are a lot better there.

I am getting excited about these little HD 16x9 cameras like the Panasonic HDC-SD5 that record to SD cards in HiDef. No tape to eat and no HDD to crash. These are getting reasonably priced now and look good. Any experiences with them?
Panasonic | HDC-SD5 AVCHD Digital Camcorder | HDC-SD5BNDL | B&H

We use Edius Pro 4.5 to line video with high quality audio from the Nagra later in post. Titling is done there as well, burns DVD's straight from the timeline to HDD without menus, hooray!

[danijel]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

SD cards in HiDef.

+1 for the cards vs. the tape.
no moving parts, and quick copy to HDD (vs realtime with tapes)

[Corran]

I was thinking harddrive would be better and easier than SD cards. Is the harddrive really that finicky?

[videoteque]

I swear you that I don't work for a tape manufacturer!!!

The couple of secrets to not have a problem with tape:

1) Buy always the same model and brand (even if it's not the same of your camcorder). Check your local shops, if all of them carry Sony, buy always Sony tape.

2) Don't mess too much with the tape. When you rec a concert, you hit rec once and complete a tape. When you capture, you capture it all at once. It's reviewing, going back and forward many times that ruins the fragile mechanics of cheap H/DV camcorders.

The only drawback of tape camcorders are that tapes last 61 minutes. Don't buy tapes longer than 60 minutes nor use the tapes in LP mode unless you want to have problems.

The problem of video is that it takes a lot of space, 9 minutes takes 2 Gb. If you rec with 4 cameras one concert that is 90 minutes long, you have 90x4= 360 minutes, you will need 80Gb just to have your raw recording.

If you buy a high-definition camcorder, you will give a DVD (that's standard definition). Will you throw away all your HD raw recordings??? Will you back up 80-120Gb of material every concert you rec???

Plus the camcorders that rec to SD or internal hard-disk record use a format called AVCHD. The ones that go to tape, use HDV. Both formats are VERY compressed. But HDV is less compressed and it's a slighty better format.

The Canon HV20 that I recomended in my first post has been aclaimed as one of the best camcorders ever, please, google it or read some happy customers here:
Canon HV20 / HV30 User Forum - Powered by vBulletin
HV20 - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

Of course, YMMV!!!

[Corran]

Well, lets say my budget is $600 (new or used).

What would you suggest as a single camera for recording concerts/recitals. It needs to be as high-quality as possible of course. No pixelation or whatever you want to call the artifacts I see in for example bad Youtube vids.

[hughesmr]

Thanks for all the comments so far (keep 'em coming!).

My audio is made to a HDD these days, so I guess I'm more naturally inclined to go with a non-tape video format (HDD or flash) ... I do want capacity for straight shoot of well over 60 minutes. Some of the newer small Canons (VIXIA HG10, for ex) HD camcorders look like they might fill the bill at a reasonable proce.

I guess my main questions deal with the process of syncing separately (independently) shot audio and video. My audio would likely be source DSD 5.6 made on the MR1000, transferred to PCM using Audiogate at whatever bit depth/sampling rate is right for DVD (16/48?). Then I would transfer video signal to the same computer (I'm a Windows user), then sync them up in the box. So:

[1] Will I have sync problems due to clocking issues with independently made audio and video, even if both are done digitally without tape? If so, how to handle?

[2] Is flash more reliable than HDD for video?

[3] Will the typical end user notice the difference between AVCHD and HDV? Both are HD, so I might presume it would be like asking if you can hear the difference between 24/48 and 24/44. Am I wrong here?

[4] The camcorder will produce an audio track, certainly one I'd want to discard in favor of my own audio from the Korg. How does one make the swap of audio sources for the same video signal in software?

[5] Specific camera and editing/authoring software suggestions for Windows are sought. I want a very classy looking end product, but don't want to spend piles of money. David suggested Edius Pro, which looks like a nice choice and can be got for $700ish. That's at the top of my intended budget for software. Thanks for the suggestions so far!

All responses from everyone to the above are GREATLY appreciated. Thanks in advance for helping this video babe in the woods... I shot lots of personal video in the early-mid 90s but never at this level with syncing, editing, etc concerns.

[Also, at this point I'm looking at getting just one camera, but would entertain hardware/software suggestions that would make the step up to two cameras at a later date a trivial step.]

Cheers!

[Corran]

I don't think you need to worry about the syncing.

I've used the free Windows video editing software to sync audio up with videos other people have shot. They have all worked fine. As for the sound from the video tape, I use it to sync my recording up to then mute the video.

Pretty easy I think.

However you might run into trouble if you sync up, say, an hour long symphony in one shot. The differences in time code in this instance might be just enough to throw off the syncing, or so it seems to me...I haven't done it.

[Jay-]

If you get into video its not uncommon to pay down your investment in 3 projects.
I'm troubled by the single chip Mini DV/HDV Camcorders.

The XLR inputs on some cameras are total poo but do work.

I'm still using a 3 CCD DVCAM because I don't work full time.
The tape less to media cards are way more then the $600 you suggested.

Might I suggest a cheap but professional quality camera (Used on dozens of feature films) Bamboozled, Inland empire and CNN Latin America.
Sony VX 2000 Camcorder - eBay (item 180229139739 end time Apr-07-08 13:30:20 PDT)

The quality is nothing to sneeze at and you might find your self paying down that investment very fast as word gets around your working in video.

Iv found though that video work there lots of skum bags and troubles and you should get 1/2 now and 1/2 at job finish. I have found lots of small time rock bands that try to scam me for free work also.

Over all I regret ever falling in love with video production, or should I say obsessed with video editing?

If you dont need HD editing there no reason an old copy of Sony vegas wont do everything you need, then get Vegas 7 later.

Avid has a free version of avid and also a cheap version called "Liquid"
I perfer Avid over any other application.
Avid Free DV Software Support
Avid Liquid 7 Education Version Video Editing Software - eBay (item 130215642949 end time Apr-24-08 19:24:15 PDT)

[danijel]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

[1] Will I have sync problems due to clocking issues with independently made audio and video, even if both are done digitally without tape? If so, how to handle?

quite possibly. i've heard it can drift up to several frames on an hour-long shot. you can't sync cheap camera with audio recorder, but when you watch it later on and notice a sync issue, you can make a small cut, either in video or audio, and slide the rest manually a bit. if it looks good to you, it will look good for the client. if you are watching your video on an LCD or plasma, the pic will be 1-3fr late anyway, so if you know somebody who has syncheck (www.syncheck.com) you can tune your reproduction.

EDIT: of course (i don't know how i forgot this), output the MR1000 audio to camera line-in during recording (don't record the camera's mic). that's absolutely the best way to sync it later on.

Originally Posted by hughesmr

[2] Is flash more reliable than HDD for video?

if you drop a camera with HDD, there's far greater possibility it will malfunction. but flash is expensive. EDIT: check for the possible length of recording to flash - it might be too small for concerts.

Originally Posted by hughesmr

[4] The camcorder will produce an audio track, certainly one I'd want to discard in favor of my own audio from the Korg. How does one make the swap of audio sources for the same video signal in software?

you can do it in any editing program, but also in virtualdub - a free, opensource video-manipulation program with basic editing features.

Originally Posted by hughesmr

[5] Specific camera and editing/authoring software suggestions for Windows are sought. I want a very classy looking end product, but don't want to spend piles of money. David suggested Edius Pro, which looks like a nice choice and can be got for $700ish. That's at the TOP of my intended budget for software. Thanks for the suggestions so far!

see how much is sony vegas. those two (vegas and edius) are very popular, powerful and modern. don't let 'pro's talk you into AVID, because it's an un-intuitive dinosaur which is still around just because it's a standard. vegas is in fact a very powerful audio editing/mixing application, just a step behind the big league. its interface comes from audio philosophy, so you'll have a very easy learning curve. premiere is great, but expensive, and not versatile for audio, and less intuitive (for audio people, at least).

p.s. didn't know about the avid free. if you can get it (since it's discontinued), it's probably more than enough for you.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I feel Michael addressed his question in the right forum.
We do audio production for broadcast, video and film so I feel we are the right forum.

i take that back. the comments here are more appropriate for the given purpose.

[hughesmr]

Bump ... any more comments/advice?

Cheers!

[Jay-]

Its not the most high paying job for most of us.

Might want to post these questions also on this URL:
Business Talk - DV Forums

So you cover your self buisness wise.

[David Spearritt]

Michael, some further comments. You don't need to worry about synching, in an hour of recording the audio from a different high quality recorder will drift one or two frames by the end only. I always leave the camera audio to record from its inbuilt mic as this helps lining up the HQ audio later in the PC. All you do before burning is mute the camera audio track.

I would avoid Vegas, it gave me GPF's occasionally or AVID free, it doesn't burn DVD's from the timeline. Premiere Pro is terrible as well. Believe me I have spent hours and hours with teeth grinding annoyances in video editing software and Edius leaves them all for dead.

[dcharrison]

I have done a number of one-man multi-camera performance shoots and it is surprisingly easy. Single camera stuff is boooooring. Think security footage. With one camera, you must shoot wide in case the artist moves. That means no close-ups, no details, no sweat on the bass player's brow.

To shoot multi-camera, set one camera wide and don't touch it. Use a second camera to zoom and pan for close-ups. When you edit, use the wide shot for cover when your wild cam is searching out the next shot. If you have a third camera, shoot a wide left and a wide right and work your wild cam from the center.

I will second the insistence on tape--not for any of the usual attributes (permanent storage, ready access in any major market world wide, cheap cost, etc) but for the known and predictable compression ratio of MiniDV and the existence of 30 actual frames per second on the tape. The current crop of low priced HD cameras use an extremely lossy compression scheme that consists of full frame data followed by a stream of "change" data--essentially a list of what has changed since that last full frame. On a high dollar camera with DSP compensation this looks pretty good, but under $1000 it is not so pretty.

Also, look for a 3 chip CCD camera. This will be the most noticeable difference in picture quality. 3 chips give better color saturation, less smearing, and a significant improvement over even the nicest single chip camera. CCDs will save your ass when it comes to lighting. The dirty little secret about these cheap HD cameras is that they require significantly more light in order to make a decent picture, a function of their HAD chips and their resolution. In audio, acoustics is everything. In video, LIGHTING is everything. Most recital halls have fixed lighting that is not very flattering. Even concert hall lighting is contrasty and harsh. Using a camera with low light capabilities (like the VX2000) will get you a beautiful picture where a HD camera will get you nothing.

I wouldn't even bother feeding your Schoeps to the camera. Use the wave form from the on-camera mics for a sync reference in post. You might also find that using the camera mic like a room mic (since it is usually further away) gives you some interesting options at mix time.

Fear not the drift. You will run out of tape long before you notice any sync problems. The biggest problem I encountered was finding a visual sync reference on a symphony shoot. Double system film work solved this with a "slate," but just try and ask a symphony conductor to snap a slate before he starts and you will find yourself on the business end of his baton. String players give no visual reference, woodwinds are likewise obtuse. I needed a drum hit or something staccato to line things up, but those guys were way in the back. I searched through a whole performance and found nothing until, when the performance was over, a woman stood up and stomped her feet to dislodge her dress from her hose. Perfect sync!

If you are a PC guy, Premiere has a new multi-camera edit mode that will allegedly sync the picture for you and has a split image for up to 4 cameras that you can point and click to edit.

If it is not worth all the hassle of editing, you might consider feeding the S-video output of a camera to a DVD recorder along with an analog audio signal and, when the concert is over, you are done! DVD recorders are around $100, these days.

Don't count on selling DVDs for any of your income. People will buy one and make their own dupes. In fact, don't count on getting paid much for your video work. Everybody has a camera now and the other day I saw a guy on the corner with a sign that said, "Will shoot video for food." Right behind him was a guy with a sign that said, "Will shoot for less food."

[matthewd]

Hi there

I had the same thought and began offering this to supplement my mainly classical recording proposition but it hasn't all been plain sailing. What format? Well, tape length is indeed an issue - we generally use Sony Z1 cameras and shoot in HDV not because we want to - we would rather use DV CAM in a way because HDV requires time consuming rendering after the edit before you can encode. In DV CAM though the tapes only go for 40 minutes in these cameras whereas HDV gives just over an hour but this is still almost always a bit short. We did find some Panasonic 80 minute short play / 120 minute long play tapes which seemed like a good idea and Sony seemed to support them but we had a lot of drop outs and I haven't yet worked out if it was the tapes that were at fault. You don't really want tape breaks as it makes the multicamera editing function which is the only really cost effective way of doing it in Final Cut unwieldy. I usually sync up on the first clap and drift doesn't seem to be a problem. On the more pro shoots we have used lockit boxes and run timecode between the cameras and had video ref to sync with the multitrack audio (Pro Tools) but in these days of health and safety hysteria, you can do without the masses of cable. I am sure there are wireless timecode solutions out there but only for megabucks.

Audio - we have generally sent a feed from the audio recorder to the wide shot and sometimes to one channel of the other cameras leaving the on board mic on the other. Some of the Sony menus are a bit complicated to establish whether you are internal / external mic, mic or line input, 6 12 or 18dB gain reduced - just don't try and work it out for the first time when you are under pressure!!

Three cameras and two operators works OK. Someone mentioned using the HDV resolution to make a tighter shot out of a wide which is a good one. You can also do quite well having one operator responsible for two cameras moving between them so the two never move at the same time. In other words, you always have a safety but not always the same safety which can be repetitive if you keep going back to it.

If there is more than one of you, I have begun to think maybe a form of communication would be quite useful so you can co-ordinate who is doing what - ideally at the beginning you work out your positions and which selection of shots are in your remit. The next stage is to have a director calling it ahead from the score which
I have done and it is very stressful. It was interesting working with professional (but not musical) camera people. One tip I learnt was not to worry about keeping the moves smooth between shots - so long as there is cover in the form of a wide or you know the other camera guy isn't moving, it is better to rip away and find the next shot really quick so the maximum footage is usable.


In editing, it took a while to realise that cutting on the beat is usually a no no. As musicians we tend to feel it that way (just as musicians make the worst ballroom dancers) but if you watch professional productions, they usually follow the ear so the close up of the oboe is a few notes into their solo once the ear has picked it up.

Never underestimate the time involved in digitising the footage, editing it, rendering it, encoding it and burning a DVD master and subsequent copies and printing on them.

For us, the jury is out as to whether this is something we should be doing. The post production is very time consuming - one way we have looked at reducing this is by live vision mixing it using a system called Anycast by Sony which is aimed at the corporate conference market and features a laptop and a bunch of remote control cameras so one operator can prep the shots and then cycle through them on the gig recording both a mix and the isolated cameras. We are hiring a system for an opera recording in June which is in the round so being able to put the cameras on top of mic stands with no operator is ideal. I will let you know how we get on.

Matt Dilley

[David Spearritt]

Matt, an excellent post. After experiencing all the issues Matt discusses here, we also came to the conclusion not to "tool up" in video and start advertising our services as the money, stress and bloody post time to do it properly (is there any other way) is just too much. Life is too short. Get the client to hire a pro team, give them the audio, perhaps assist them with one camera, but stay out of it.

We will get prosumer camera again soon for single camera auditions, but will leave the rest of it to some other poor sods.