Live Engineers...earplugs?

[dangoudie]

I've been thinking about investing in some high quality ear plugs because I obviously value my hearing very highly and cheap plugs make everything sound shit so I don't enjoy bands as much.

I basically want to know if the hype is justified:

Can pro ear plugs have a flat frequency response?

Can you REALLY hear the difference between £180 ones and £1.80 ones?

Do you trust what you're hearing when you wear them?

What's a good attenuation value?

Thanks

[steveschizoid]

Yes, the musicians earplugs sound way better, but they still attenuate high frequency more than low. I definitely feel mine were worth the money. The Er-25's are (obviously) more protection, but not as much fun to listen through. The ER-15's are a good compromise. If you are running sound every night, it might be good to get both - once you get the ear molds, the inserts cost about $20 - then you could pop in the ER-25's when you really don't need to listen critically.

[dangoudie]

Cool, thanks.

Anymore experiences?

[geeek]

Hii

I've worked in live sound for years.. I had a pair of custom made plugs made (which I lost at a rave one night) - they cost quite abit (about £200odd)

I had a pair with ER-25s fitted if I remember correctly.. I remember thinking the attenuators were a little bit too much, and couldn't mix that well with them, as they attenuated the HF a lot more than the rest, and are not as uniform as they claim to be.
They are very comfortable tho.. and I reckon if the attenuation was lower, I would be able to mix with them

Other than that now, I just use foam ones when I'm happy with the mix.

[esaias]

+1 for Elacins, I have had ER's for 5 years and been very happy with them.

You can mix easily with while wearing ER's, you just need to use them for a while so you will learn how they sound. They do sound a lot better than the cheaper ones (those "christmast-tree" shaped). And you can put them on just for your own comfort even when the overall volume is low and you can still hear fine. This is helpful when your doing long days with speakers/bands/shows which you find rather uninteresting

One of the most comfortable feature of the ER's is that they reduce earfatique a lot! At least in my experience, when I use those cheap ones, after a full night in a loud enviroment my ears are quite beat even I had worn protection, with the ER's this doesn't happen. I guess it is because the cheap ones doesn't block bass so well and that the air pressure is more even in the ear canal with the ER's because the filter membrane gives way according to airpressure (in controversy to those yellow foam types that make airtight seal and you can hear all this low rumble that your body movements create)

Anyways, go for Elacins(or something similar)! They are money well spent.

edit: Forgot to mention that if you go for Elacins, take both 15 and 25 filters, 15 is a good for most cases and 25 is for those loud nights and useful if you are working in the venue but not mixing, since you can still hear speech fine thru them. And oh, forgot to write about how you can hear speech much better with elacins in loud enviroments than with the cheap ones. One more word about elacins and I have to start asking money from elacin for such marketing :D


-Tomi

[lordwesley]

Alright Dan, how's it going?
The reason i don't get super expensive ones is I'm prone to losing them... if something's not quite right, like the beginning of feedback or a bit of a crackle I end up pulling one out very quickly while i deal with the problem. I'm down to 4 left earplugs now, so i assume i must always pull out the right one to listen.
I use Doc's Proplugs (about 12-13 pounds), you can still hear much better than those super cheap foam things (not tried the expensive ones but heard good things). I have (had...) a pair of vented ones for normal use and some non-vented ones for silly loud bands and band practice. If you haven't tried them grab a pair from a local percussion or surf shop, tis worth a try for 13 pounds.
If you lose the left one please send me the right....

[Fabi]

Have Elacins for many years now and am extremely glad i have bought them.
The cost is not that bad considering what there is to loose.

I also did lots of live mixing with these plugs and it worked out OK.

Also I play on stage with them, but you will have to get used to them, because you tend
to play too loud (I´m a drummer also)

I never leave the house without them anymore.
They´re also very comfortable to wear and stay in your ear - headbangingsave
I wouldnt get the higher attenuating filters, for 15dB is already a lot.

They also are highly durable - I accedentally washed them at 60 degrees celsius, and they came out uneffected.

Also nice: they look more like hearing aids, people will shout at you constantly

Only disadvantage, your ears change shape after a few years, so will have to get new molds.

Your ears are worth it definately.

[Konketsu]

+1 over here for the custom plugs, whatever brand. I have both the 15 and the 25dB filters, and I find myself using the 25s a lot more for the club shows and the 15s for the folk/classical shows.

I've also found myself wearing the 25s whenever I step out of the house as well. The ambient noise of an urban environment is pretty overwhelming to listen to once you've had a chance to attenuate it.

At any rate, you should get a pair with extra filters. They're the best gear purchase that I've made without a doubt.

[dangoudie]

comments so far have been really helpful however they've been more about comfort than sound.

I think the only reason I would shell out for expensive ear plugs is if their claim of 'flat' response was grounded.

So what have you guys noticed sound wise? Every thing quieter or only some things. Obviously bass travels through your body too but I'm mainly talking about HF.

[Fabi]

Originally Posted by dangoudie

I think the only reason I would shell out for expensive ear plugs is if their claim of 'flat' response was grounded.

So what have you guys noticed sound wise? Every thing quieter or only some things. Obviously bass travels through your body too but I'm mainly talking about HF.

As you already say, they will not have a totaly flat response, but I was actualy very surprised how natural they sound. Hfs indeed are a little lower, but kind of only on the top end. However it is not that noticable. Also you can always take them out and control whats going on. I think though its not nessecary and will slowen the process getting used to it.

Compared to all other solutions I would say imagine putting your Masterfader to -15dB (and btw you will also have the feeling that you loose HF by doing that)

I mixed livesound quite often with them. Never a problem or complain.

Another approach to conserve your ears would be to mix at a level were also the audience wont become deaf

[videoteque]

Originally Posted by Fabi

Another approach to conserve your ears would be to mix at a level were also the audience wont become deaf

Am I the only one that finds the volume of the hihat offending in 99.9% of pop/rock live gigs??

Maybe that's why I love Jazz!!!

[fifthcircle]

I swear by my ER 15 and ER 25 earplugs. Spent a couple hundred bucks on them and I will not go to or mix loud events anymore without them.

They are surprisingly flat. The 25dB filters attenuate a touch more at the top end than the 15 does, but they are both very close. Before I left the audiologist, they even did measurements to make sure they were close. They were.

For what little affect on frequency response it has, it is better to use them and hear than not and end up with hearing damage. Also, your ears will shut down quickly when exposed to loud noise. If you want to hear accurately over time while mixing, it benefits you to wear neutral hearing protection.

--Ben

[tomasexetien]

I have Elacin ER-15 too. But when I use them I don't hear high freqs. Elacins attenuations graph presents ER-15 as flat, but I don't think so. Maybe the problem is in my ears...

[fifthcircle]

The audiologist put me in a sound proof room wearing my earplugs. They would play tones through a speaker and measure the frequency response inside my ear with a tiny little microphone. They were accurate to within a dB or two full spectrum. Saw the computer readout myself.

Personally, I wouldn't use them to master, but when mixing FOH on a loud gig, I feel absolutely confident that this is close enough (and closer than any other product on the market) to do good work.

--Ben

[bove]

I often use the ER 15 when performing... any kind of music... orchestral, rock; it can really save you when you're seated near percussion or brass. Can't say enough how nice they are. Completely different experience than "regular" earplugs.

[dangoudie]

Originally Posted by tomasexetien

I have Elacin ER-15 too. But when I use them I don't hear high freqs. Elacins attenuations graph presents ER-15 as flat, but I don't think so. Maybe the problem is in my ears...

Actually I just checked out a graph on their site and its not flat. 4kHz is attenuated by 15dB but 8kHz is attenuated by 20dB. It looks pretty flat for the rest of the spectrum though

[esaias]

Don't worry about the freq response too much, you can work with Elacins. The real downside could be that you end up cranking the volume too high because you're wearing comfortable earplugs :P

-Tomi

[David Rick]

I've been using ER-15's for years. I've found a number of non-obvious benefits. I can wear them on the floor of the AES convention, get a much smaller noise dose, and still hear well enough to hold a conversation. I can wear them on my bicycle, still hear overtaking traffic, but not be deafened by motorcycles. I always use them in the car. If I have no passengers, I can then crank up the radio and actually hear the bass over the road noise.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[TheSoundFella]

Don't think I read it above so I wanted to ask, Where can I get a pair of Elacins from in the States? Where'd all you guys get yours? Didn't seem to come up w/ too many options listed in the US.

[Bixby]

I also use my ER-15s (or my Shure SE-530s) in airplanes, especially if I'm stuck near the back where you get a lot more noise wash.

[ProFool]

Originally Posted by esaias

Don't worry about the freq response too much, you can work with Elacins. The real downside could be that you end up cranking the volume too high because you're wearing comfortable earplugs :P

-Tomi

That what I fear all the time, I tend to push to hard on some parts like delay's etc when I have my plug's in. So mostly plug em in after a couple songs when I got the mix where I want it be.
There very welcome especially when you have to mix 3 bands a night.

[DannyL]

True story:

Years ago, my assistant had a locally popular heavy metal band. They asked me to mix a show for them. I said that I would do it, but they had to trust me and do what I said, level wise. I had the drummer play with no amplification and had the band balance their sound on stage based on the acoustic level of the kit. Added the Vocals to fold back and then brought up the mains. The PA was pretty quiet, you could still have a conversation in the hall. At the end of the night a couple of fans said that they had never heard the band sound so LOUD. People do not need to be deaf to have fun, apparently.

Seems that when the human ear works within its capacity things sound better.

No earplugs were harmed or lost in the making of this documentary.

Danny

[boojum]

^^^^^ Reason trumps habit. Brilliant. thumbsup

[Gravity]

+1 I love my ER15 and 25's I've been wearing them since i was 15 (and had them remolded once or twice)

They've been worth everything i paid. I set levels with them out, and then do the rest of the night with them in and out as I need.

When gigging in a band they're indispensable. I even wear them at concerts I attend and don't work.

Amazing.

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I swear by my ER 15 and ER 25 earplugs. Spent a couple hundred bucks on them and I will not go to or mix loud events anymore without them.

They are surprisingly flat. The 25dB filters attenuate a touch more at the top end than the 15 does, but they are both very close. Before I left the audiologist, they even did measurements to make sure they were close. They were.

For what little affect on frequency response it has, it is better to use them and hear than not and end up with hearing damage. Also, your ears will shut down quickly when exposed to loud noise. If you want to hear accurately over time while mixing, it benefits you to wear neutral hearing protection.

--Ben

[toneguru]

Does anybody run sound at a safe OSHA level anymore?

For ten years I was a house engineer and I had the luxury of running sound softer than 99% of most other live engineers.

Too many live shows are loud and unbalanced. Overall, sound was probably better before subs came into mass vogue. Now its all too common to crank the subs.

I doubt I will ever run sound for loud shows on a regular basis. It is much less rewarding and my hearing is too valuable to me. Last year I quit a regular gig cause the concert mgr wanted it loud even as the customers wanted it quieter.

Loud concert sound with the subs cranked has become an "emperor has no clothes" nightmare. The amp and speaker manufacturers and maybe even the concert sound companies are perpetuating it.

Anyway, you gotta have earplugs (and backups) but you also should be looking for a gig that lets you run sound at a safe/musical level.

PS. Any venues in San Fran need a reliable, musical soundman? Please get back to me.

- Cheers

[GZsound]

What is the sound level at the gigs where those of you who wear earplugs are mixing?

I have never used earplugs, but also never had the volume level so high it seemed necessary. Do any of you have db meters handy at the mix station?

I think the fact that the engineer is wearing earplugs may be the reason so many live shows are at ridiculous volume levels.

[bishopthomas]

Just because an engineer decides to wear earplugs does not necessarily mean that it is 120 dB. Some of us just want to ensure that our hearing stays as accurate as possible for many years, doing this every day of our life...

[GZsound]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Just because an engineer decides to wear earplugs does not necessarily mean that it is 120 dB. Some of us just want to ensure that our hearing stays as accurate as possible for many years, doing this every day of our life...

I understand and that makes perfect sense.

I just hang out on some live sound boards and the power and speaker requirements (or suggested requirements) for even a small club gig are staggering.

Most live rock or country shows are way too loud these days. When folks start recommending twenty thousand dollar PA systems for a club band playing for 150 people, it's gotten crazy.

I get yelled at and insulted on those forums because I suggest smaller quieter systems..

After playing rock and roll for 50 years, I understand the need to protect your hearing. But "turn it down" always worked for me.

[bishopthomas]

I completely agree that SPL's are sometimes ridiculous at concerts (which is why I always bring earplugs). I hang out at some (probably the same) live forums as you and I agree that there are definitely some gear snobs around. But at the same time, do not mistake a high quality, and therefore expensive, rig to be pure volume. It is very possible to have quality gear perform very well at low volume, and it usually takes more gear to make that happen and preserve the coverage aspect of live SR. Besides, a $20,000 club rig is really not that amazing. At least half of that will probably be a console.

[GLouie]

Originally Posted by TheSoundFella

Don't think I read it above so I wanted to ask, Where can I get a pair of Elacins from in the States? Where'd all you guys get yours? Didn't seem to come up w/ too many options listed in the US.

You don't get Elacins in the USA AFAIK. Any audiologist will make custom earmolds that take Etymotic (brand) ER-15 or ER-25 or ER-9 inserts, and they sell you the package. Etymotic is in the USA.
Etymotic Research, Inc. - Musicians Earplugs