classical guitar + soprano

[danijel]

hi all! i'm a seasoned music recordist (i'm normally doing film/TV postproduction), and i have a pretty basic question, but i can't find answer anywhere on the forum (seems like most discussions are about modern close-miking recording).

i need to record a live concert with two performers - a classical guitarist and a mezzo-soprano. they will be performing mostly romantic period songs (schubert and the like). they have performed extensively together already, and are supposedly well-balanced (meaning, she sings softer than she would if performing with piano or orchestra).
they are usually 2.5meters (8 feet) apart, facing audience, but as the recording is the purpose of this concert, i can (within reasonable sense) rearrange them to liking.
the hall is 400 seats, but pretty dump (fabric all over, not much wood), so i don't count on any of it's acoustics (also, i don't think too much reflections will be a problem)
i have already recorded this guitarist's solo performance, and his preference on guitar sound is very dark, distant (dream-like) sound with as little detail/fret/picking noises as possible. (for connoisseurs, we were after the sound of julian brim.) but this is another project, and i don't know what it should sound like here.

two approaches come to mind:
- a stereo pair (XY? AB?) to get them both. maybe make them stand a bit closer, so the mikes can be 2.5m (8 feet) from them, so they fall semi-left and semi-right in the stereo field;
- individual miking - make them stand as far apart as possible (say 3.5m - 11.5 foot) facing a bit towards each other; a figure-of-eight on a guitar (to dim the voice) at 1.5m (5 feet) from the sound-hole; a little sound-screen between the guitar and the singer's mic; a cardioid on the voice at 1m (3 feet).....

or should i do the stereo AND some closer miking (30cm - 1foot)??? i really don't know what this recording should sound like, and i'm not going to have time to get some reference recordings......

i would highly appreciate answers from classical recording folks!!!
thank you!

[joelpatterson]

My little mantra, which rubs some people exactly the wrong way, is that the closer you get to the sound source, the clearer and ultimately more engaging, interesting, human, and sympathetic the results will be.

This can be overdone, obviously, but I tell the people who come up and ask me about it: if you are doing something that you want heard, anything you might describe as solo-esque, if you're further than ten feet away from the nearest microphone, the listener is going to have to strain to hear you, relate to you, appreciate you.

What I'd do in your case is ring the stage with sets of stereo mics, some closer, some further, and then when you get to mixdown see how it all shapes up. Four sets of stereo mics fits nicely into eight tracks. Somewhere in there, you've got the potential for finding the "best" version, which is always very subjective-- which is not to say there isn't a way that's "right" and then a bunch of other ways, which will be murky and boring.

[Melodioso]

My approach is always the same with classical music. Whether it's a symphonic orchestra or a duo, I think this music NEEDS air. Of course depending of the style/period, you sometime will go for a more intimate sound and closer miking, but I'll never "close mic" < 1 meter. Specially with a soprano. I try to give back the illusion of a performance in a space, not of individual sources mixed together. In this sense, I respectfully disagree with Joel.

Get a stereo pair of omni in AB, 40 cm apart, 3 m high to start with, 3 m in front of the duo. Move it around until you have a nice balance. Spend your time with this pair, as most of your sound (and success) comes from them. Maybe put them further apart, lower, closer, whatever. Each hall / music / performers are different. But make sure this pair sounds great!!! And keep in mind, that even it's only two people, it's still an ensemble. Put the mics too close, and you will loose their relationship...

Once it's done, you can close mike them with two cardioids. I would let the performers place each other so they are most comfortable. I don't think they'll want to be 3.5m apart when performing! Your cardioids will get more or less the same signal, meaning not too much separation guitar/soprano. That's ok! 80% or more of your sound comes from the omnis; so maybe you'll just use one cardioid (to give some details), maybe none. Let the soprano and guitar player balance themselves.

It's also good to have a track for reference, specially if you use headphones. And the most important: create an atmosphere so they can perform their best!

Good luck!

[danijel]

thanks for your opinons!

i will definitely do my best to get a reference recording today (i'm recording tomorrow).....

i have some more details about available mics, so i beg for another round of opinions!!!

what i will have tomorrow:
AKG C414 BTL-II
violet amethyst (standard)
2x AKG C1000s

fireface800 (with it's 4 preamps) and additional joemeek VC6Q preamp (mono).

so, the only stereo pair i can use for AB or XY is actually a class below other equipment (c1000s). i will definitely record them (why not), probably AB, as melodioso suggested (only, they're cardioid, not omni).

what should i do with two better mics?
- set them up as an MS pair (c414 doing the figure-of-eight)?
- set them up as described in my original post (individual miking - with as much separation as possible)?

i don't know if MS is a regular technique for this particular duo on a non-acoustical stage?

this question comes down to true stereo (MS) VS faux stereo (with more post production freedom later on).....

thanks again!

EDIT:
- joel, i would personally close-mike them, as i fully share your view on intimacy, but i'm just trying to go with the flow here - i have to do it the standard way, so no one gets pissed
- melodioso, you're probably right when you say it'll be hard for them to be 3.5m apart, which diminishes chances for recoding with some separation for faux stereo....

[David Spearritt]

I made a superb live recording of Andreas Scholl accompanied by the wonderful Canadian guitarist/lutenist Crawford Young, with an MK21 pseudo ORTF pair and a single MK4 spotter on the guitar, its some of my best work ever.

Don't go close, don't do it, this performance needs air but you will absolutely need a high quality spotter on the guitar to get the correct balance against the much more sound powerful singer.

If the hall is lacking in good natural acoustics then additional reverb in post will be your saviour, but don't get too close with the mics, make sure the main pair is at least 3m away and high and the guitar spot is at least 1m from the instrument, pointing from a small stand at the lower bout of the guitar table.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

I made a superb live recording of Andreas Scholl .

I've also had the opportunity to record him live (with Hammerflügel and Harpsichord). Turned out good, but maybe not fantastic. That reminds me I still need to send him a CD...

Interestingly, he is a bit of a Gearslut himself, who owns a number of high-end microphones and a little studio, IIRC. It's not often one gets to talk shop with "classical" musicians... Lutenist David Tayler is another case.


Danijel, if you had lat least two 414, you could use these as main pair... But if there's nothing to rent or borrow, use the AKGs as main and apply EQ as per taste... I would use the two individual mics as spots, (not too) close up.


Daniel

[danijel]

thank you guys! now i am getting the idea of what i should be doing!

since everyone is suggesting a good stereo pair above all, how would a pair of AKG C451 perform as AB or ORTF at the suggested 3m? (is it a significant up-step from c1000s?) this is the only decent matched pair i found for rent by tomorrow. (i keep on trying.)

then i could spot both guitar and singer from 1-1.5m with those good mics i already have, to be safe in the mix.

also, no one gave me a direct no-no for the MS.....? i admit i never saw MS on chamber music, only on orchestras....

[Melodioso]

AKG C 451 B are fine cardioid mics, and a step up from C 1000s (I don't like those). You can set them up in an ORTF setup (AB refers to omnis). The suggested 3m is only just that, a suggestion. With ORTF, you will normally go further away than with omnis, so you really have to try different positions to see what's best for the project.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by danijel

since everyone is suggesting a good stereo pair above all, how would a pair of AKG C451 perform as AB or ORTF at the suggested 3m? (is it a significant up-step from c1000s?)

I would say yes... Is this an old 451 or the 451B? This mic does tend to be a bit bright, but I've made a great sounding recording of an accordion player (performing Cage and Satie etc.) with two 451s and CK5 capsules...

also, no one gave me a direct no-no for the MS.....? i admit i never saw MS on chamber music, only on orchestras....

I personally don't like MS much...


Daniel

[Al Rogers]

Phillips recording engineer Volker Strauss used a microphone array consisting of two spaced pairs of mics. Each pair was an omni and cardioid taped together. I used to work for a recordist who used this technique for recording small ensembles. It can give beautiful results.

You tape a cardioid and omni together to make each pair and mount them like you would a spaced pair of single mics. We used Neumann mics. Then you hang the array above and in front of the the stage.

By adjusting the balance between the omni and cardioid pair you can find a sweet spot where the imaging is dimensional and the tone is full and natural. We recorded Sharon Isben and her percussionist that way and I was impressed with the technique. If you've never tried it, it's worth experimenting with.

I think you can get info on "Strauss Packet" microphone array recording from AES.

[danijel]

i just found a pair of schoeps MK2 & MK4 (i will get both pairs of capsules)....
i will also borrow an API A2D stereo preamp/converter, and bring along my ADAM P33A pair (i'm too green to judge by headphones), so i guess that i have top-notch equipment - now i only need more brains and ears

Originally Posted by Melodioso

...Get a stereo pair of omni in AB, 40 cm apart, 3 m high to start with, 3 m in front of the duo. Move it around until you have a nice balance....

thanks, i think i'll try this first, but i need some clearance on AB vs ORTF:

Originally Posted by Melodioso

The suggested 3m is only just that, a suggestion. With ORTF, you will normally go further away than with omnis

how is AB vs ORTF for the least hall reverberation pick-up? i can't judge, because AB picks more from the rear (due to pattern), while ORTF should be further, and thus pick up more of the hall.....?

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

....with an MK21 pseudo ORTF pair and a single MK4 spotter on the guitar....

this is the closest situation to the one i'm in, so i could copy your 'preset' and try it out. what do you mean by 'pseudo ORTF'? (this comes up only 7 times on google, nothing about it in bruce bartlett.....)

as for spotting, i'll spot both the guitar and the voice, being the chicken that i am

Originally Posted by d_fu

This mic does tend to be a bit bright, but I've made a great sounding recording of an accordion player

i have recorded solo guitar with a pair of c451, and ended up severely taming the highs - i guess it would be great for rock/country guitar.

Originally Posted by d_fu

I personally don't like MS much...

seems like no one does here. it's used a lot in film, though.

Originally Posted by Melodioso

You can set them up in an ORTF setup (AB refers to omnis).

sorry, i learned from books that AB can be done with any pattern, but i just realized that in reality AB=omnis.

[danijel]

(OFF TOPIC):
i just have to say that today i'm blown away by the community in remote forum!! we have a great crowd over at postproduction, but now i see i'm going to have to track this one as well from now on.....

sorry, i just had to say it! - it's one of those exhilarating moments, like when you discover youtube or wikipedia
thank you all!!!

[Westmalle]

Originally Posted by Al Rogers

Phillips recording engineer Volker Strauss used a microphone array consisting of two spaced pairs of mics. Each pair was an omni and cardioid taped together. I used to work for a recordist who used this technique for recording small ensembles. It can give beautiful results.

You tape a cardioid and omni together to make each pair and mount them like you would a spaced pair of single mics. We used Neumann mics. Then you hang the array above and in front of the the stage.

By adjusting the balance between the omni and cardioid pair you can find a sweet spot where the imaging is dimensional and the tone is full and natural. We recorded Sharon Isben and her percussionist that way and I was impressed with the technique. If you've never tried it, it's worth experimenting with.

I think you can get info on "Strauss Packet" microphone array recording from AES.

Thanks for this idea. I will certainly test it , once I have some mikes.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by danijel

thanks, i think i'll try this first, but i need some clearance on AB vs ORTF:

how is AB vs ORTF for the least hall reverberation pick-up? i can't judge, because AB picks more from the rear (due to pattern), while ORTF should be further, and thus pick up more of the hall.....?

this issue has resolved itself - i just found out i will have to lower the microphones from the grill to achieve 3m height, so it will be very difficult to try both ORTF and AB. i'm just going to do the AB, as i will have more freedom to experiment with positioning and width.

thank you all, i have no more questions, but of course, any additional insight is welcome!
(like, that ORTF vs AB reverb thing)

[bove]

Originally Posted by danijel

of course, any additional insight is welcome!
(like, that ORTF vs AB reverb thing)

One difference with ORTF, as opposed to AB, is that you will have more control over setting up the microphones to exclude the audience noise. Coughs, shuffles, etc.

[brle]

Originally Posted by danijel

(like, that ORTF vs AB reverb thing)

What about NOS technique? NOS stereo technique - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I´ve got good results with it, on voilin + accordion recently, only two cardiodids and no spots in good hall (btw i´m from Belgrade too, so what hall exactly are you doing tomorow?).
good luck!

sascha

[danijel]

Originally Posted by brle

(btw i´m from Belgrade too, so what hall exactly are you doing tomorow?).
good luck!

sascha

thanks sascha! i PM'd you.

[Legacy]

Good advice so far IMO. I'm a spaced pair fan myself but each has their own preferences.

If this were a session and not live I'd consider having a conductor's podium or other kind of 'box' that would raise the guitarist 8-18 inches off the floor. This will get the guitar's sound production 'height' a little closer to the singer's sound production height relative to the mics and may help to get the guitar to excite the room more. You may still be able to pull this off live if all are willing (with a cond podium for instance).

I suspect that one issue you can have with this ensemble is that its VERY easy for the singer to excite the hall and quite difficult for the guitar to. You can quickly have problems with getting enough clarity from the guitar without it sounding dry and too close (because its not hitting the hall). Getting the guitar higher and angling it for max hall effect will help.

Obviously it being live you'll just have to get a good mic position and hope for the best stage balance.

-Silas

[danijel]

Originally Posted by Legacy

raise the guitarist 8-18 inches off the floor. This will get the guitar's sound production 'height' a little closer to the singer's sound production height relative to the mics and may help to get the guitar to excite the room more.

thank you, i wish i saw your post before i went to the gig - sounds reasonable!
you're absolutely right about the problem of guitar sounding too dry (because of not exciting the room enough and addition of the spot mic).
as a matter of fact, i got my hands on a recording of this kind of combo (julian bream + sir peter pears), and the guitar sounds at least 2m in front of the voice in loud passages (when the voice wakes the room).
i hope to solve this situation by adding matching reverb to the spot mic. in fact, i already made a rough premix, and posted it in a new thread:
samples - clipping of the voice itself, or is it my bad?

[Legacy]

Originally Posted by danijel

thank you, i wish i saw your post before i went to the gig - sounds reasonable!
you're absolutely right about the problem of guitar sounding too dry (because of not exciting the room enough and addition of the spot mic).
as a matter of fact, i got my hands on a recording of this kind of combo (julian bream + sir peter pears), and the guitar sounds at least 2m in front of the voice in loud passages (when the voice wakes the room).
i hope to solve this situation by adding matching reverb to the spot mic. in fact, i already made a rough premix, and posted it in a new thread:
samples - clipping of the voice itself, or is it my bad?

Its a puzzling ensemble. Likely, they wouldn't have wanted to have the podium live anyway as it would be unsettling / distracting for them (its damn hard enough playing the guitar well as it is )

In sessions, on rare occassion that I know the piece has balance problems I've even miked the guitar, fed it to an amp BUT put the amp out in the hall facing away from the mains and use it very subtly to get the gtr sound out there. If set up carefully you it won't color the instrument's sound but will give it some more resonance in the space.

-Silas

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by bove

One difference with ORTF, as opposed to AB, is that you will have more control over setting up the microphones to exclude the audience noise. Coughs, shuffles, etc.

In ORTF, the cardioids aren't turned away from the audience all that much... Also,have you looked e.g. at the 180° frequency response of a good cardioid? Rejection is less effective towards higher frequencies, so what comes in from the hall can tend to sound unnatural and more unpleasant (esp. coughs and shuffles)...


Daniel