Tascam dm24 or MOTU HD192 -as core studio

[iflyinmymind]

Hola fellow sluties...I have a question about my core studio that some nice soul might be able to help me with.

I already have a MOTU HD192 and feel like I might get more out of the Tascam Dm24.

My computer is a AMD 1.7 ghz but it is just not fast enough to use enough plugins. So I felt like I could get a UAD1 to help, but I think the tascams dsp could take some load off the cpu.

My main question is about the sound quality and usability . I have read that many here like the conversion, but still obviously cannot compare it to the higher quality converters. Also it seems some people don't find much of the Tascam dsp to be so great.

Is there anyone who thinks the tascam is a great piece of gear? Or at least a good option other than stand alone conversion and a analog mixer?

I am only really interested in the tascam if the Firewire card works well. Then I can use the Tascam with any computer anywhere. So it seems the F/W interface could open up doors. Has anyone used the F/W card yet? It is supposed to transmit 24 channels. It just looks ike a great idea. You know 1 cable to the computer, to a fully automated mixer...

Does anyone have the firewire card yet?

Any input would be great... Thanks
_________________________________
Todd Seibel "he who laughs last is not laughing anymore"

[ROBB007]

I think you would be way better off with a Tascam dm24 I run both a Logic control and a dm24 for better summing I actually don't mind the TC***REVERB'S and the comps arn't bad either I run this in conjunction with my out board Distressors and my UAD card GO WITH THE TASCAM board I love it way way better than the say Yamaha boards, better pre's In my opinion .

[dale116dot7]

I have a DM24, but I use it in a non-pc based studio. I have 2 DA88's and an Alesis HD24 that I use for recording. I don't mind it. The on-board effects are useable, though not excellent, and the compressors/gates on a per-channel basis are great to have but also not 'great' sounding. They do what you would expect a generic DSP compressor would do. For real compressors I use a G1176, 660Clone, a Distressor, and a compressor of my own design. The disadvantage is you have to do an extra D-A/A-D process but the sonic degradation is less than the extra added by those compressors. I also run a Lexicon PCM91 in a digital loop.

I can't judge the converters because that's all I have other than the converters built into the HD24 and DA88 - and my entry-level analog gear is pretty low-end (Alesis Studio32). One thing to remember is at 96kHz, you get 12 channels - half the capacity. I run at 44.1 or 48 for everything I do so it's no big limitation. SRC on it isn't great, so I find recording at 44.1 works better on it than 48k. I think it would be useful with the FW card, though I don't have that - I use a pair of ADAT cards plus the on-board ADAT interface for 24 ADAT channels at 44.1 or 48k.

The mic pres are more-or-less ok, pretty uncoloured. If you're used to entry level boards such as B****er and Alesis (which aren't terrible but not great either), the DM24 is a big step up. If you're used to the sound of an SSL, MCI, or Neve, you might not be as impressed. For the price, I like it. I played with an O2R96 and I liked it quite a bit more, but it's five times the price.

If I were designing a DM24-like mixer, I would have liked to see the additional DSP power to do the full thing at 96k (one more of the SHARC DSP chips would have been great - and there's a spot on the board for one), a bit more flexible patching capability, and maybe 4 expansion slots with 16 channels at 96 kHz per slot instead of 8. Also, I'd put in active delay compensation for inserted effects - there's a 32 sample delay on the DM24 if you use an analog insert in the digital path. Note that the channel inserts are between the mic pre and the converter. All that being said, it works for what I'm doing - recording singer-songwriters.

One thing is they haven't updated the firmware in over a year, so I'm not sure what the support will be like for future products and that sort of thing.

I suspect if I were starting out fresh, I might go with the MOTU and a big control surface. I could not work on a virtual console at all. Or I might try to go the analog route. Maybe a reasonably nice used Soundcraft or that type of thing. Maybe I'd still go with the DM24. Or maybe I'd do something else as a hobby. I dunno. The main reason I got the DM24 was it had good control of the DA-88 machines I was using at the time I got it. It was a mixer upgrade and a remote control at the same time - for not much money.

Though I've done a bit of recordings I'm doing mostly demos and a bit of CD-ready stuff (and I've got some local radio airplay) so you can take my opinions as someone who's been at it for two and a half years as a fairly serious hobby - not making money at it.

[Buddhaman]

dude--


the fire wire card for the DM24 is not out yet...

they have been delaying release since January due to DRIVER TROUBLES.

You will have to get the MOTU 2408 to run 24 channel in and out TDIF.

The DM24 can sound good, but like all digital it depends on the clock source. I clocked mine to a Kurzweil KSP8 and it sounded great...it would probably sound even better clocked thru newer clocks like a Big Ben.

Latest info on the firewire card at the tascam forum here

http://www.tascamforums.com/

Buddhaman

[LumenStudio]

I bought that board partly because I saw the Firewire card advertised in Mix in May 2004.

Guess what, the card is not out and they will not give any date on it's release. I don't even think its going to come out in my opinion.

I'm looking into an RME solution to hook up the board the rest of the way. I currently use an RME Hammerfall to get 8 channels into it, and then 8 more channels into it via the hammerfall into an old Motu 2408 used to convert to TDIF. Since my motu 2408 does not work in my computer, I am looking into a RME solution to hookup the board. I really like the board other than this crap with the firewire card. To me it sounds better than summing in Cubase SX 2.0, but it may be just because my workflow is improved on an external mixer (the main reason I bought it). The internal effects seem ok, but I have the powercore card and an eventide eclipse that are just easier to use. The on board effects are not that hard to use though. I clock the board to an Apogee PSX 100 SE which could be helping the sound to. I also use external pres and conversion. I really just use the board to sum and and have physical faders when all is said and done. The automation is very easy to use.

jpaudio posted a fantastic mix here that he did on that board utilizing the onboard EQ's I believe. Maybe he can repost it. I remember that as another factor that helped me decide on buying that board. Come to think of it I have to check out when that band is gonna play because they were really good.

Good luck

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by LumenStudio

jpaudio posted a fantastic mix here that he did on that board utilizing the onboard EQ's I believe. Maybe he can repost it. I remember that as another factor that helped me decide on buying that board. Come to think of it I have to check out when that band is gonna play because they were really good.

Thanks dude! i dunno about fantastic, but if you say so!

I posted a few mixes that were all done on my DM24, not sure exactly which band you're referring to.


Gotta say I like the DM24 alot. Been very happy with the results i've gotten from it. Best price-performance out there IMHO. You just gotta get in there and make it do what you want, bottom line. Just like any other desk, it's not gonna mix the song for you.

I use the FX sparingly, usually when my outboard units are occupied. Occassional Flanger or extra TC verb isn't bad at all. Routing kicks major @$$. EQ isn't bad, better than Yamaha IMHO. Yes Lumen i use almost entirely Tascam EQs, not much in the outboard dept yet. No probs with the summing. Run the output through Phoenix DRS-2 for extra color (pads engaged).

Preamps actually aren't bad at all, use them on OHs and Toms all the time. Converters aren't too far off from my Lucid 9624. Lucid is a little bigger and nicer on top and bottom overall.

At the time, my options were DM24 or a used 02Rv2... i'm more than happy with my choice over 2 years and numerous projects later.

[squizz]

jpaudio

do the inserts on the DM24 work on mixdown? i was under the impression the insert are between the mic pre and a/d converter. how do you insert outboard if thats the case?

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by squizz
jpaudio

do the inserts on the DM24 work on mixdown? i was under the impression the insert are between the mic pre and a/d converter. how do you insert outboard if thats the case?

when i want to run something through outboard during the mix, i come out of the computer via MOTU 1224 D/A, into the piece(s) of gear, and into the DM24 analog line ins. All other tracks are routed out of computer via MOTU 2408, into DM24 digital ins. I don't use the inserts at all. Yes, the inserts are between the mic/line input and A/D.

[manning1]

only comment i would like to make about standalone non pc
recorders.....what do you do a few years down the road ?
i'm very leery of proprietary hardware with lots of smt chips
as ive been "studio is down" in the past if a malfunction occurs.
once i couldnt get maintenance done with a proprietary piece .
at least with a pc you can easily pull out a board and get a new one quick. ie: mother board or sound card.
me i run powertracks multitrack software on an amd system and get 48 tracks.

[dale116dot7]

Regarding inserts, the jacks labelled 'INSERT' are between the preamps and the converters, so they are not useful during mixdown - but they are nice to bypass the preamps if you don't need the gain adjustment or balancing. I usually run my external pres into the insert returns.
If you want inserts during mixdown you can have up to four - the SEND/RETURN jacks (there are 4) can be patched to be either send/return or channel insert. Since my external reverb sort of effects run through the AES port (I use a Lexicon PCM91), my send/return jacks are free for channel inserts, so I have a 660-like comp on 1, a Gyraf 1176 on 2, a Distressor on 3, and a compressor of my own design on 4. Then I use the internal insert patchbay function to assign them as I need.

[ROBB007]

Looks like this Tascam DM24 is truely a[ CANADIAN THANG} although I am partial to the west that is Vancouver I do also love Calgary!!!!!! So come on Dale jump in, you'll love the board !!!!!!!

[cdog]

Dude. DUUUDE.

A PC running Logic with a UAD-1 is so much more powerful than a DM24, its not even close. I'm afraid for you, that you would even ask this question...

Compare the stats of Logic vs the DM24. Really, do this.

Here's an important one: Logic is a 32 bit digital mixer, the DM24 is not. Does this matter? Only if you move faders.

The UAD1 plugs rule... especially the Pultec & Fairchild. This matters.

The HD192 is a nice box... can't see the DM24's converters sounding better.

The DM24 has mic pres and line ins... whether you would use them is a question only you can answer. I would use dedicated mic pres for sure, think mix and match. (Think: 8 utility channels for extra dums/line ins [Focusrite Octopre, Mackie Onyx] and 4 first class channels for kick, snare, vocals. [insert favorite high end pres here])

Buy an Apogee BigBen and your HD192 takes another step up in sound quality...

The Logic/MOTU rig is flexible, expandable, rackable...

I have no doubt the DM24 is a nice piece of gear that can be used to track and mix nicely... but if you can swing the extra $$$$ for some nice pres and a Big Ben, you'd be a step ahead of the pack sonically.

[jpaudio]

You might have a point in some ways cdog, but it's all in the eye of the beholder. I'll do a better mix on a piece of shit with faders and knobs than with a mouse. I've kinda decided over the past few years that comfort and ease of use can be much more beneficial to a mix than numbers and math. I went with a digital console because i wanted something that felt analog, to satisfy my aesthetic need, which in turn keeps me more focused on the mix and not other bullshit. I'm using the computer as a tape machine and sample editor, plain and simple. and my outboard will smoke your UAD, but that's another thread altogether.

[jpaudio]

oh, and i feel worse for anyone caught up in stats than the dude who asked the question


I say DM24 AND HD1292, integrate analog outboard in between the two. Best of both worlds.

[LumenStudio]

Originally posted by jpaudio
oh, and i feel worse for anyone caught up in stats than the dude who asked the question


I say DM24 AND HD1292, integrate analog outboard in between the two. Best of both worlds.

cdog did bring up some good points. I would pick up the UAD and the DM24 if I had to make the decision. I already have both so I don't have to decide

But, the firwire card is not out yet, so I don't know how you would hook up digital from your PC to the board with the HD192. The DM-24 comes with 24 TDIF I/O, 8 ADAT I/O, 2 Stereo SPDIF I/O, and 2 Stereo AES I/O. I've been on a big rant about the firewire card not coming out yet, but quickly my DM-24 is growing back on me because it is improving my mixes everyday I use it. Even though I am only utilizing 16 channels and 4 aux sends of the board at this time. I just turn off the computer monitors, put my stereo speakers in mono, mute one speaker, kick back and mix.

You could buy up to two expansion boards for the DM24. Although you would have more processing and plugs with the UAD, you have no physical faders. If you want to free up CPU, check out fxfreeze.com .

Ideally you could have all of your gear all at once. Since you can't, make sure that you can use that peice of gear for years, or that it gives you a lot to use in the next year or so and that it gives you enough to get some mixes done.

If I had to choose, I'd get the UAD-1 first (like I did) and a control surface or digital mixer second. I'd actually get a good mic and a few sm57's before the DM-24, then get the DM-24 (or similar), then get better pres, then get better conversion.

I love kicking back and mixing though, with faders...

[LumenStudio]

Originally posted by jpaudio

I posted a few mixes that were all done on my DM24, not sure exactly which band you're referring to.

The band was Beyond Myrth, the song was Poisen Apple. It's on my mp3 playlist at work. Cool stuff. I live in Jersey so I have to check out one of their shows in Hoboken some time.

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by LumenStudio
The band was Beyond Myrth, the song was Poisen Apple. It's on my mp3 playlist at work. Cool stuff. I live in Jersey so I have to check out one of their shows in Hoboken some time.

actually that band broke up about a month ago or so... damn shame, i was a fan as well, and was very proud of that mix/project. I work with their frontman/songwriter all the time, Dave DeVoe... he's a talented producer and we started a production company together. Should be starting up a new band soon, he's the kinda guy that can never sit still for too long. I'll keep you posted, and will also get another mp3 of Poison Apple up here ASAP for anyone else interested... it should be on the MP3 Show & Tell page somewhere too.

BTW, didnt mean any offense with my post earlier... just stating that what's better doesn't always make sense on paper, it's in the eye of the user. The DM24 makes much more sense than a UAD card for me personally, although i'd like an HD192 as well.

[ROBB007]

Dude*****I use a DM24 in conjunction with Logic plat and a UAD card and 3 Nuendo 8*8 96k converters. I prefer to mix out of the computer for better summing*** yea I'll use the pultec eq's and La2's but not before I record with my 4 Avalon 737's and 3 Great river nv2's annd other neve pre's and a couple of distressers,yea the boards no neve but I like it better than the Yamaha boards,that said*** each to there own but I see no need to crash another mans stuff if that is all he can afford. I mean I am no fan of Motu stuff but if it works for you I think thats great as far as the board{DM24} I highly reccomend these boards for the cash** Great summing better than just out of the box.I have tried both with almost your set up****CANADA ROCKS***********Maybe not in the olympics mind you but thats another story for another day**

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by LumenStudio


But, the firwire card is not out yet, so I don't know how you would hook up digital from your PC to the board with the HD192.

You'd also need a MOTU 2408 for 24 channels of digital i/o via TDIF. Right now I run a 2408 and 1224 (1224 for DACs feeding outboard gear). Would love to replace the 1224 for HD192 one of these days...

[iflyinmymind]

Wow.. Thanks..Lots of good responses..Thats what I love about this place.

I actually would be selling the Motu HD192 to get the tascam. I Do love the sound of the conversion in the Motu, I just really would like a mixing board to do mixes on!! You know? I probably would still get the UAD-1 but I would rather spend money on hardware. I have all the waves stuff, and Psp V-warmer is awesome. I really just dont want to keep throwing my money into the digital pit!! I know the FW card is not out yet, but hopefully soon enough.

I was thinking that I would just have the DM-24, Insert my two channels of vintech 1272, and two of RNP. As for compression I am building a DIY SSl stereo comp, and have a Joe Meek SC2.2. I want to get a Dbx 160x for bass guitar. I think that might do me right.

It seems there is only 4 channels of sends/returns available to do mix down, which seems wierd, but probably good enough for me.

I think I would I put the SSL on the stereo bus, and still have the 4 sends, .

A lot of folks seems to think this board kicks butt, but...Hey what do I know. I have never really used one. I think I am going to wait for the FW card to come out so I do not have to buy another MOTU thingy.

Many recommend the UAD-1, but is it really worth it unless you buy the other plugins. B/c the project pack is sparse. I think I would use the EQ's like JPAUDIo, and I can use SIR convolution reverb with the Pcm-90, etc....for free. Insert some decent compressors, use the rest from Native land, and save the $ of the UAD-1.

Also what about the DM24 only storing 7 mixes. Can you midi dump it to the computer? Just wondering?

Thanks !!!

[jpaudio]

There are 4 assignable hardware 1/4" sends and returns, but the DM24 has 6 total aux sends and 8 buses that can be routed to just about any output on the unit. Example, I use the AES digital i/o for my TC units and the assignable analog sends for the odd stompbox or echo unit. The stereo bus has dedicated TRS inserts, but i've chosen to just take the main outputs and run them into the patchbay for stuff like that. So you won't lose any sends by using a bus comp. Once you get into the routing and internal features and get a feel for how powerful the console is, i'm sure it will be adequate for your needs. At least try the EQ and compressors before you buy anything additional, that is if you're certain on buying the DM24. Regarding the conversion, i doubt you'll have a problem with the DM24 ADs, not bad at all. Much better than the older MOTU stuff, comparable to the newer units. I was concerned about this when i bought mine, but after 2 years and a couple dozen projects later, it's just fine. Not the finest in the world, but they get the job done.

Finishing up some new mixes on the DM24 this week, will post when complete.

[dale116dot7]

Yes, you can midi dump mix and automation files to a computer. It stores only 7 automation files but lots of 'snapshots' if you don't need automation for a mix it'll store lots of those, maybe 100 of them. It stores patches, effects, fader, eq settings.