The Holy Grail Blumlein Pair?

[Santiago]

It is the only one I have tried, but I like a lot the the Lustraphone VR65 Stereoplus ribbon microphone from the late 1950s. It should be darker than more modern alternatives and has very low-impedance outputs (I use in-line transformers provide by Xaudia to bring them up to 600 ohm, which adds quite a bit of clean gain), but it sounds great.

The original Stereo/Blumlein ribbon microphone: Lustraphone "Stereo plus" VR65

At some point, I would like to record a whole album with it, a bit like Chris Whitley's Dirt floor (which I think was recorded with a Speidel Blumlein ribbon)...

[sonare]

Here is the DG approach to MS-- it appears to be Sennheisers with what I presume are KM83 close flankers to add "gravitas." With MS one need not stick to the 60 degree angle of acceptance for coherant phase. The location is Musikverein Vienna.[IMG]ms_musikverein.jpg[/IMG]

[sonare]

Originally Posted by leddy

I'm on the eternal quest for the perfect sound.

Wouldn't the working definition of "perfect" vary with room/ensemble/repertoire? Not to mention that in this instance it is 100% subjective--

Rich

[lord_bunny]

blumlein is my favourite stereo choice. something about MS and ORTF doesn't do it for me the same way... different applications however call for different things but when i want a great center image i use two r84's in blumlein and an MP4H great river pre.

i did a solo trumpet in my space last week (1500 sq ft) and it was amazing.

[Rolo 46]

Originally Posted by sonare

Here is the DG approach to MS-- it appears to be Sennheisers with what I presume are KM83 close flankers to add "gravitas." With MS one need not stick to the 60 degree angle of acceptance for coherant phase. The location is Musikverein Vienna.[IMG]ms_musikverein.jpg[/IMG]

I think DG could do a little better with suspensions for the flankers.....

[sonare]

If you look through the DG sessions on this site EMIL BERLINER STUDIOS | Welcome you will notice that they take full advantage of the fact that pressure transducers are fairly immune to the effects that shock mounts are supposed to eradicate. Even for all cardioids many of the locations have solid or even stone floors. And finally-- an array at the end of a boom that is sitting on the auditorium floor rather than the stage will likely not be subject to LF disturbances.

In general I think we are much too used to using shockmounts of varying quality (even on omnis) and because of the microphone's low mass are not terribly successful. The best approach is thinking through the application and then using one's ears-- and I am sure that the EBS guys did that.

NOTE: EBS has closed its doors so if you want to see one of the most amazing studio and location operations DON'T DELAY. This site could be taken down at any time.

Rich

[RobAnderson]

Originally Posted by sonare

Here is the DG approach to MS-- it appears to be Sennheisers with what I presume are KM83 close flankers to add "gravitas." With MS one need not stick to the 60 degree angle of acceptance for coherant phase. The location is Musikverein Vienna.[IMG]ms_musikverein.jpg[/IMG]

Not sure, but those flankers look like Schoeps of some kind to my eye.

Could be MK5 caps (think I see the slider on the one to the left of the picture), but otherwise the vents would imply something directional - MK21 or MK4 perhaps?

Also, it doesn't necessarily imply that the two arrays are mixed together - could be an either/or sort of thing.

[sonare]

I think eagle-eye Rob is correct-- on closer look they are definitely Schoeps and probably Mk5., and if so my money is still on the outer mics being in omni mode. My reasoning is a lack of angle resulting in a mostly mono image if they aren't A-B.

Rich

[Rolo 46]

Originally Posted by sonare

If you look through the DG sessions on this site EMIL BERLINER STUDIOS | Welcome you will notice that they take full advantage of the fact that pressure transducers are fairly immune to the effects that shock mounts are supposed to eradicate. Even for all cardioids many of the locations have solid or even stone floors. And finally-- an array at the end of a boom that is sitting on the auditorium floor rather than the stage will likely not be subject to LF disturbances.

In general I think we are much too used to using shockmounts of varying quality (even on omnis) and because of the microphone's low mass are not terribly successful. The best approach is thinking through the application and then using one's ears-- and I am sure that the EBS guys did that.

NOTE: EBS has closed its doors so if you want to see one of the most amazing studio and location operations DON'T DELAY. This site could be taken down at any time.

Rich

The Senny suspension is just adequate and the omnis have none.
LF always penetrates arrays
They need some Rycote lyres.

I think its MS and spaced omnis.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

The Senny suspension is just adequate and the omnis have none.
LF always penetrates arrays
They need some Rycote lyres.

I think its MS and spaced omnis.

Sorry-- but judge with your ears and eyes. If you don't hear a problem on Senn HD600s it isn't there. And if you look in your DAW and see no difference it isn't there. Universally proclaiming that Rycote lyres (terrific BTW) are needed when there are other entirely adequate mounts available makes one suspect you have ties to Rycote.

Just curious-- did you look through the EBS site?

Rich

[Rolo 46]

Why would you assume that ?
Senny suspensions are horribly expensive and not brilliant imho
The lyres are cheap and excellent and I have no connection, even though I live 3 miles from them (and 1 mile from ATC)
A clamp mount on any mike just isnt good enough and HD 600 's,lovely as they are, does not reveal the whole location story ,as I know very well.
Will look at the EBS site
Bumpkin

[Richard Black]

I use a Royer SF-12 most of the time, in straightforward XY. Sometimes I add a coincident omni (as near coincident as can be practically arranged) so that I am effectively using a sideways-facing fig-8 and a forward facing cardioid (or close to cardioid).

Incidentally, 'Blumlein pair' is normally taken to mean two fig-8s but if you look at the original patent

482,740

you'll see he also describes (first, in fact) the use of two spaced omnis.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Richard Black

I use a Royer SF-12 most of the time, in straightforward XY.

There is no XY possible with an SF12, you only have Blumlein or MS Blumlein.

Sometimes I add a coincident omni (as near coincident as can be practically arranged) so that I am effectively using a sideways-facing fig-8 and a forward facing cardioid (or close to cardioid).

So you mean you start with MS Blumlein, then you add and mix an omni with the M fig 8.

Incidentally, 'Blumlein pair' is normally taken to mean two fig-8s but if you look at the original patent

Correct!

The loose use of terminology in these threads makes the topic confusing.

[Richard Black]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

There is no XY possible with an SF12, you only have Blumlein or MS Blumlein.


So you mean you start with MS Blumlein, then you add and mix an omni with the M fig 8.


Correct!

The loose use of terminology in these threads makes the topic confusing.

Oh, I thought most people meant left-and-right-coincident by XY and mid-and-side-coincident by MS - i.e. they are the same physical mic arrangement, just rotated by 45 degrees. What you said about confusing terminology....

And yes, exactly that about MS Blum plus omni. Just gives a bit of back rejection. I'm a bit of a nerd and have this thing about cardioid mics being a kludge, while a ribbon is a pure fig-8, an unvented condensor is a pure omni, and the sum of the two is a pure cardioid (or something, depending on ratio between them).

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Richard Black

Oh, I thought most people meant left-and-right-coincident by XY

You're right-- however the folks who don't really understand Blumlein might get the wrong idea.

Rich

[Rolo 46]

Instead of out rigger omnis ,old hands afixed card board fag packets, (cigarette packs to you colonials) to the rear of 8's, for similar results...
Bumpkin

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

Instead of out rigger omnis ,old hands afixed card board fag packets, (cigarette packs to you colonials) to the rear of 8's, for similar results...
Bumpkin

It would not work in the US. Almost no cigarettes come in your flat cardboard pack.

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by boojum

It would not work in the US. Almost no cigarettes come in your flat cardboard pack.

Except, of course, for Marlboro Reds. Which I never liked anyway. I was a Lucky straights man until I quit. In 1985 or so.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Except, of course, for Marlboro Reds. Which I never liked anyway. I was a Lucky straights man until I quit. In 1985 or so.

This is so off-topic, but GB packs are two layers/rows of cigarettes. Ours are three. Different shaped packs.

[Nobilmente]

Originally Posted by 7rojo7

It's a nice effect
Has anyone here tried a trio? 60°? Identical to LCR angles in standard 5.1 speaker placement.
The mid mic goes sideways between the L and R (duh)

Hi

I did set this up once years and years ago on a four track tape recorder using two side address Sony microphones in coincidence, looking for all the world like KM56's (can't remember the angle, but it was wide) and a forward facing cardiod between the two side address mics, again in coincidence. Someone said that I had nearly invented the Soundfield !! (Nearly was the operative word).

For the purpose it was used, a live event, it was handy. I guess I was experimenting as much as anything. It was akin to MS.

[jrbr85]

Pacific Pro Audio

I bought the PPA and had it modded by Oktavamod - it sounds great, and isn't too expensive. I use it with my AEA RPQ.