Bass players! Rock bass; fingers or pick?

[Blast9]

Recently, I've been diggin' finger style, where there is a split signal thing going on (clean plus overdrive/distortion).

Watching some recent DVDs I noticed Robert DeLeo from STP does that, as does Timmy C from Audio-yawn.

I find for recording, it just sounds fatter and more defined and sits really well with the kick in the mix.

Live its a different story: As I sing lead vox and play bass, I'm a pick man all the way!

Any thoughts?

[Ruphus]

Provided opinions of none-bass-players are wellcomed too, to me it seems that picks have their place for pieces where it needs hsarp attack ( for instance Paco de Lucia engaged a pick bassist for his crew, as I assume for the sake of contrast to all the finger picked flamenco guitars ), but in general ...

Love to hear the string sliding under skin and nail before it gets released. I prefer finger picking player with a well measured and timed touch over a good pick player for the very most cases. Also I believe finger style to be more demanding. Same for guitar.

A friend of mine finger picks the bass that way ( his band plays U2-like rock ) and I´m a fan of him. ( Hi Piet, in case you read this )

Ruphus

[Blast9]

ALL gearslutz welcome to reply, of course!!

[LTA]

Originally posted by Blast9
Recently, I've been diggin' finger style, where there is a split signal thing going on (clean plus overdrive/distortion).

Watching some recent DVDs I noticed Robert DeLeo from STP does that, as does Timmy C from Audio-yawn.

I find for recording, it just sounds fatter and more defined and sits really well with the kick in the mix.

Live its a different story: As I sing lead vox and play bass, I'm a pick man all the way!

Any thoughts?

I've been playing bass longer than i've been a GS, or recording for that matter.

First for the 'stereotype.' Picking is a bit more consistent, more "clear," and less round than fingerstyle. Fingerstyle is a bit more bass-heavy, with a slightly muffled high end.

That said, it is more dependent on the player. There are two players i've been into since before 1990. Robert Trujillo is a big fingerstyle/slap and popper. Jason Newstead (of flotsam and jetsam) is a big pick user. Both physically, technically, and mentally, these cats are on top of their game. Both can play fast, both can play cleanly, both can get you headbanging, and both can play slow with style. These are both people that put inordinate amounts of time and effort into their playing. Now, they both had articles in the first issue of BassGuitar magazine. Newstead makes some quips about Trujillo not being able to play fast enough and clean enough to get through Metallica songs. Trujillo talks about his Battery incident. In the end, both styles are as good as the player using them.

Its by far easier to get a consistent sound with a pick, though. I am going to butcher a line i heard from a drummer concerning standard vs traditional grip. Traditional (fingerstyle) is like making love to the instrument. Matched grip (pick) is a bit more mechanical.

Now for some advice: Pick your bass heroes well. Not all of them have playing aptitudes commensurate with their level of success. I can think of one "bass player of the year" that will end up in the "hall of fame" most likely, that has no feel and also has difficulty maintaining time and feel at the high speeds of slap/tap and pop he is famous for. But the kids just love him

Check out Infectious Grooves' Mas Borracho album if you haven't already. If you don't like the bass playing and sounds, you should go see a doctor to make sure you have a pulse Its nothing like STP or audioslave.

Oh whoops, forgot to answer the question. Doesn't matter how you play, as long as you put effort into it and LISTEN to what is coming out of your amp, making changes in your playing to get the sound you want.

[Ted Nightshade]

Depends on the SONG!

Take John Entwistle for example- he's an awesome fingerstyle player and plays that way most times, but when a pick is called for, you need a pick.

Me when I played bass I played fingerstyle almost always, but there were times when you couldn't do it right without a pick.

You're a cripple if you can't play really well fingerstyle and must use a pick. Favorite cripples: Berry Oakley (hate his tone, somebody turn down the treble and take away his pick), Phil Lesh (fyckin' fabulous).

I've amazed myself by telling bassists, on occasion, to use a pick- sometimes, you got to for the song.

Otherwise, fingerstyle all the way and forever.

[Drumsound]

I used to be a hardcore fingers guy. As I get older I realize the a pick can be the right tone for a certain song, player or band. Any or the SoCo "pop-punk" wouldn't sound right with fingers. Rocco Prestia wouldn't sound right with a pick.

[Jason Poulin]

IMO the finger is better than the pic... even for acoustic guitar.

jason

[LTA]

Originally posted by heinz
May the <snip for modesty's sake>

Hey, blast9 said it first. Can i mention STP and RATM in the same sentence?

The audioslave thing is really funny though. Everybody expected an album that would go to 11. Instead, they put out something so restrained and in good taste that everybody hates it. If it would have been a new band with "nobody" players, people would be touting it as the best back-to-the-basics album of the decade.


I'm surprised you didn't sentence me to a fiery grave concerning my Wooten comment Thanks for reminding me why i stay away from bass magazines and forums, lol. Picking on the travis barker fanbase is so much more satiating Speedholes RoXoR!!11!!

[bassmac]

Originally posted by Jason Poulin
IMO the finger is better than the pic...

Maybe for pickin' your nose.

For bass - it's whatever fit's the song.

[Cornvalley]

Couple of players come to mind, Carol Kaye and Chuck Rainy. Different articulation techniques but same phunkadelia that just works cause they know what they are doing. Always try pick and fingerstyle and listen to what works better. Can always mix it up for effect as well.

[Ruphus]

Originally posted by Cornvalley
Can always mix it up for effect as well.

Yes, but in general I would think really well you can do only one of the two. At least for the most players. Or do know of many who can do both in a refined way?

Ruphus

[heinz]

Originally posted by LTA
Thanks for reminding me why i stay away from bass magazines and forums, lol. Picking on the travis barker fanbase is so much more satiating Speedholes RoXoR!!11!!

Well I realized the comment was out of place after I posted it, but my delete came after you quoted me. Sorry about that, it was pretty off-topic.

Seriously man, DeLeo is a tremendous bass player.

My School of Bass comes from

- Ralph Armstrong
- Percy Jones
- Geddy Lee
- Randy Jackson
- Muzz Skillings
- James Kirk
- Tony Levin
- John Wetton

...mostly guys who spend their time out from underneath the root of the guitarist.

Hey those guys all play with their fingers pretty much.

[Cornvalley]

Originally posted by Ruphus
Or do know of many who can do both in a refined way?

Ruphus

Uh.....no. Good point.

[LTA]

Originally posted by heinz
Well I realized the comment was out of place after I posted it, but my delete came after you quoted me. Sorry about that, it was pretty off-topic.

Seriously man, DeLeo is a tremendous bass player.

I took no personal offense to it. I just find that sort of thing funny. Imagine a room full of bass players....

My short list (basically, people i really listened to alot during the formative first years) is:

Robert Trujillo
Cliff Burton
Geezer Butler
Steve Harris
John Entwistle
Melvin Gibb
John Myung
Billy Gould

And finally, the last person to make it on the list before i stopped trying to emulate other players was Fred Babbich of the Ft Collins, CO band Fourth Estate. Not sure what happened to him, but he is the ONLY player i've seen that could tear up a bass with a pick, fingerstyle, slap, tap, et. al. and do it tastefully. Fred, if you are out there, your purple and blue burst bass is still in good hands.

Now, personally, maybe 90% of my effort is devoted to fingersyle. Pick is easier to learn, but with practice you can play the same things at the same speeds with equal facility. And if you work on it and let your fingernails grow out a touch, you can get sounds similar to a pick with your fingers.

I actually think proper bass selection is a more important parameter than fingers vs picks. That is a whole other thread though, and would really tread more towards philosophy. Rarely meet a bass player that didn't get into that sort of thing though

[Blast9]

Hows about:

1) Philosophy

2) Playing technique

3) Impressing girls.... Sorry, recording techniques!

Starting with the latter:

Who's using De-essing to tame those top end attack noises in a mix: When you've got a "happy right hand", they can be a pain in the rear, however, that prescence/attack can really help cut through the rectum-friers you're supposed to cut through, but still hold the fundamentals... OK wise guy, I need to practice more!


***


Second, what about when you dial in a big fat "not boomy" tone before you hit the DAW, but the thicker strings jump in vol by 6db?

Do you set up a more "bass lite" tone, to ensure even response:

then boost in the mix to get that good supportive fatness back?


***


Taking this further, in my humble set up, the bottom end is coming from my Sansamp Bass driver...

this happens to be a shelving EQ, so should I try a peaking type instead?

NB I never use compression during tracking, and have a very even attack happening.

At the mo, I go through my takes and reduce the loud notes in the DAW to even it out (not with automation... actually editing the wave form.) This absolutely works a treat, but its a PITA, obviously...


Bring it on... this could be a killer thread: How many bass players does it take to change a light bulb?

[kittonian]

For music that is acoustic based and slow/soft I find that fingerstyle adds a bit to the recording whereas with music containing distorted guitars and fast bass lines the pick provides the answer. Once again though, as most everyone has agreed, you have to go with what sounds right for the track in question. Who knows, a soft song might sound better with a pick whereas a harder edged song might warrant fingerstyle. You never know until you try it out and listen back.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by Blast9
Taking this further, in my humble set up, the bottom end is coming from my Sansamp Bass driver...

this happens to be a shelving EQ, so should I try a peaking type instead?

NB I never use compression during tracking, and have a very even attack happening.

At the mo, I go through my takes and reduce the loud notes in the DAW to even it out (not with automation... actually editing the wave form.) This absolutely works a treat, but its a PITA, obviously...

I use tons of compression on rock bass. Heaping serving spoonfuls of it. Compress while tracking, compress again while mixing. It's a rare player that I don't have to compress. Even the really good ones get a bit at 4:1. Using EQ can help tame boominess and even out some of the notes but knowing where to place to the EQ is a bigger battle. Sometimes you want it before the compressor, sometimes after and sometimes both. If we're talking about rock/pop/metal bass then new strings are a must. Biggest mistake I hear is people playing with their tone knob all the way down and there's no top coming off the instrument. The top helps give it defination and cut through the mix.

[Blast9]

Excellent...

Thanx Jay!


New strings: Absolutely!


I have to agree about comp, but generally I do it whilst mixing...

So, perhaps a good tonal balance should be achieved in tracking, then have several bands of peaking EQ ready in the DAW to shape the bottom end?

(I don't have anything but DAW EQ at my disposal).

[toolskid]

HEY! what about
these puppys

[LTA]

Originally posted by toolskid666
HEY! what about
these puppys

Bringing back memories.... One of my old roomates picked up a set of those. There isn't much to say about them, truth be told. Not as versatile of sound as fingers OR a pick. They were around for about 2 weeks and then disappeared. He didn't want to talk about it.


Blast9: I've seen plenty of quasi-peaking meters that just aren't accurate on bass, especially with the lower notes. They tend to read alot higher than the actual signal. Vu meters are about the only thing useful for getting a sense of bass levels. Or digital RMS scales. I'm sure most of you have heard of the studio legend (if you haven't, click the above link) who spent time working on his playing by watching a meter. Just keep in mind not every meter gives the proper sort of feedback. I've seen the meter increase by over 12dB on the lower strings before, although they were in truth at about the same level. You have to know your meters and what/how they measure.

[Blast9]

I actually meant parametric EQs rather than shelving to sculpt the bottom end, but the right word escaped me at the wrong time!

ps what does your latin quote translate to English as?

[joeq]

and what of the Plectrum itself?

for those that use picks- what kind of pick do you use? Some guys use regular guitar picks, some the extra extra heavy, then there are those weird felt jobs (does anyone actually use those things?)

I knew a guy who was always searching for the ultimate hard pick. He would grind his own from broken dishes, toilet bowls and rocks he found on the side of the road.

[Ruphus]

As a sidenote, I don´t know about bass, but many guitarists use way too hard and stiff picks for my taste. I never got the sense of that.

Ruphus

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by joeq
and what of the Plectrum itself?

for those that use picks- what kind of pick do you use? Some guys use regular guitar picks, some the extra extra heavy, then there are those weird felt jobs (does anyone actually use those things?)

I knew a guy who was always searching for the ultimate hard pick. He would grind his own from broken dishes, toilet bowls and rocks he found on the side of the road.

My friends at realrock do most of the grinding for me- nice gemstone picks. They're all different. Apparently Billy Sheehan's using them on his baritone guitar. Pick is just like a mallet- half the tone's there. Plastic is hopeless- yet folks get results, somehow! I've used abalone, ivory, buffalo horn, cow horn, wood, shells, various minerals, picks made out of old Zildjians...

[toolskid]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
picks made out of old Zildjians...

thats where my 1920s old K's went

bloody bass players

[Pondscum]

Being a bassplayer I switched YEARS ago from pick to fingers.I rest my thumb on the top of pickup and play like hell! I find I get a nice snappy yet thick tone when I`m bearing down and in my groove. But as far as recording I have to play real soft or I get all those clicks in the tracks. Fingers ALL the way DUDE!

[Stizz]

And for my 2 cents worth - it depends what's right for the song. I have always played with my fingers, but there are times when a pick is necessary, but I was never very good at holding onto the pick - so I use a big fat thumbpick - I think they are made for dobros. I still hold it like a regular pick, but I am guaranteed not to drop it!

[Brian Middleton]

As a sidenote, I don´t know about bass, but many guitarists use way too hard and stiff picks for my taste. I never got the sense of that.

I agree. I like the yellow Dunlops (.73 mm) for acoustic guitar, and the green .88's for electric guitar and bass. I can't stand anything thicker than that.

I think some people like stiff picks because they make ultra-fast playing a little easier. But I don't like the way they feel or sound--you lose too much nuance. I'd rather be slow and expressive.

Then again, the best guitar player I know uses very stiff picks (the little teardrop ones), and he's fast *and* expressive. Go figure.

[Brian Middleton]

As for the pick/fingers thing--like a lot of guitar players who pick up the bass, I started using a pick on everything and have gradually come around to using fingers on most things. Fingers give you more control of dynamics and tone, and I almost always feel like I'm in deeper into the groove playing fingerstyle. But a pick is still useful, especially for songs with a steady eighth-note pulse that needs clear articulation.

[elninojesus]

Yeah its been said before, but it all depends on the band/song/bass. I played with my fingers probably 5 years before I ever considered using a pick. The last band I played bass in was a pretty guitar heavy band and fingers just sounded wrong with it. You just gotta be able to do both. It sure it easier to get a good sound for me with fingers tho. Also, I cant stand the sound of an active bass played with a pick.


Mark