Brass section

[usamike]

So I just got an email from a friend who does really nice "chamber pop". She wants me to record a brass section for her of euphomium, trombone, french horn and tuba. Here are my mics and how I was planning to use them.

EV RE20, RE15, RE16, N/D 468, Gefell UMT-70s, Shure KSM27 x 2, Royer 121, Senn. 421, SM57s

Here's what I'm thinking:
KSM27s as a stereo pair in the room
RE20 on the tuba
121 on the bone
N/D 468 on euphonium
UMT-70s on the French Horn

I have access to a 414 if I need it. Any tips on placement would be appreciated too.

Thanks,

Mike

[Steffmo]

If you get it right you won't need the individual mics.

I would keep all the mics 2 to 3 feet from the instrumentsif you need them it should just be to highlight a part here and there.

[Brent Hahn]

I'd probably put the Royer on the tuba (about 4" over the edge of the bell) and put the 414 on the bone. Looks good otherwise.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

I'd probably put the Royer on the tuba (about 4" over the edge of the bell) and put the 414 on the bone. Looks good otherwise.

That placement will make the tuba sound HUGE - one of my favourite mics and positions.

I don't agree with the 414 on bone tho - I would try the other R-121, or the RE20 if the Royer doesn't sound right. I don't like condensers very much on brass, unless the player/part is very mellow. Great tube mics (like the U67) can sound pretty stellar on a mellow horn tho!

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

I don't agree with the 414 on bone tho - I would try the other R-121

Absolutely, if he had another Royer.

[Shadow_7]

I may be off base, no practical experience myself. But wouldn't you want to use the same or similar mic(s) for all of the brasses? So they blend better in the mix?

If that's what you have to choose from then those seem decent. I'm not familiar with the Euph one. The euphonium is a conical bore instrument with a lot of mids in the sound. So mic accordingly.

As far as placement, you want the mic for the trombone on a boom arm and off to the players left. Probably a foot, maybe two out from the bell. The mechanics of the horn causes a lot of movement, so you don't want to crowd in too much.

[usamike]

I just found out that the tuba player will be playing the euphonium too. So one of them will be an overdub. So I can use that 121 on the tuba and again on the bone.

[Brent Hahn]

What's "remote" about this thread?

[bongo]

Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording Jazz, Classical, Choir, Acoustic Music environments & beyond + Live Performance, Mobile & Location Production & Broadcasting Moderated by Steve Remote of Aura Sonic Ltd. NYC, NY USA

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

What's "remote" about this thread?

[bongo]

I would just start with the Shures as a stereo pair and add what you need. Depending on the room, you might not need much more, maybe a mic on the tuba.

[henryrobinett]

I wouldn't put the 414 on the bone either. I'm a ribbon on bone guy. In a classical ensemble it might be better, but uncontrolled trombones can splat, which needs a good ribbon to tame those transients. 121 would do nicely. I haven't done a euphonium. RE20 on Tuba is good. I've used ribbon on french horn with great results. It's a tough instrument.

[Shadow_7]

In terms of instrument families, the Tuba and Euphonium are related. As are the Trombone and French horn. The Euphonium is often called a Tenor Tuba. And the Trombone and French Horn actually have the same length of tubing. Given a choice, ribbons work well on most brasses. Although with Tuba you can get away with using LDCs. In either case you need a mic that can handle high SPLs. Especially if you plan on close micing.

If the room is good, all you really need is a room mic with the right placement of mic and musicians. Which might be difficult in that the Tuba points up. The French Horn points Back. The Trombone points forward. And the Euphonium generally points up, but can point forward or to the side depending on the type / model.

[bove]

Originally Posted by usamike

I just found out that the tuba player will be playing the euphonium too. So one of them will be an overdub. So I can use that 121 on the tuba and again on the bone.

If the tuba/euphonium player is more comfortable on one instrument or the other, it will be best to lay down the group tracks with him playing his primary instrument, and then overdub the other one. That will be better for intonation, etc. All things being equal, I'd recommend that you get the tuba sound down first with the rest of the group, and then do the euph by itself.

[usamike]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

What's "remote" about this thread?

I think it was moved by the moderators. I actually posted in the So much gear ... thread.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by usamike

I think it was moved by the moderators. I actually posted in the So much gear ... thread.

Yes, it was moved to the forum that specializes in Acoustic Music recording and such.
There are quite a few threads about recording brass.

I hope you will find the time to search the forum for our "brass" threads.
I'm sure you will be pleasantly surprised.

[freestyle tromb]

ribbons on bone!!
i'm not a fan of 414 on brass. i just tried out my studio's coles 4038 on my trombone; freaking LOVED it, man. and i've used a 121 on bone before; it was pretty dark, so not ideal for everything, but i loved it anyway.

[newyorkbrass]

I a recent convert of ribbons on brass! I just made my own combination of upgrading a $70 NADY Ribbon mic with a $100 Trandformer and the results are stunning.

I should really go to the studio and record a 414, ribbon, and other mics lying around into multi channels into my NEVE pre just so you can hear the difference. Although flat is nice, when fed into a compressor/IR Verb the ribbon shines through the mix.

I find that Ribbons sound huge on lead/screamer trumpets.


Here are the points for ribbons:

• They have a natural compression to them and react fast to the horn - no preassure buildup is necessary to acticate them so everything sound very accurate.
• They also dont introduce artifacts at 10K and up like condensers, so sound remaind clean and all levels and octaves
• They have a very nice proximity effect for bass bone/tuba
• They have a very accurate figure 8 noise rejection patters, so with proper placement you can avoid phasing problems of multiple mics
• They cut through the mix
• They have a more "analog/tape" sound that enhances digital recordings
• Can withstand sound levels in excess of 150db
• Have a built in compressor type action so you can record a cleaner uncompressed track

[nukmusic]

as mentioned above...i'd also start with stereo micing. L/R or M/S

[Ken K]

Originally Posted by newyorkbrass

[*]Can withstand sound levels in excess of 150db
[/LIST]

Isn't a jet airplane taking off somewhere in the region of 120db? With the exception of the Crowley and Tripp "Roswellite" ribbons that are supposed to handle extreme SPL's and the new Royer "Live " versions you can damage a ribbon with too much volume. On the other hand I agree with your point that ribbon mics sound good on brass.

[newyorkbrass]

Originally Posted by Ken K

Isn't a jet airplane taking off somewhere in the region of 120db?

What is your reference SPL? Unlike Condensers Ribbons cannot be damage by loud noise at all - only from DC or Close to DC sound (Wind=>a few HZ)

I have a tutorial on recording brass
New York's Best Brass - Record great brass sounds in your home studio

[PlugHead]

Obviously, you drank the KoolAid too - just a little bit later than some of us!

Originally Posted by newyorkbrass

I a recent convert of ribbons on brass! I just made my own combination of upgrading a $70 NADY Ribbon mic with a $100 Trandformer and the results are stunning.

I should really go to the studio and record a 414, ribbon, and other mics lying around into multi channels into my NEVE pre just so you can hear the difference. Although flat is nice, when fed into a compressor/IR Verb the ribbon shines through the mix.

I find that Ribbons sound huge on lead/screamer trumpets.


Here are the points for ribbons:

• They have a natural compression to them and react fast to the horn - no preassure buildup is necessary to acticate them so everything sound very accurate.
• They also dont introduce artifacts at 10K and up like condensers, so sound remaind clean and all levels and octaves
• They have a very nice proximity effect for bass bone/tuba
• They have a very accurate figure 8 noise rejection patters, so with proper placement you can avoid phasing problems of multiple mics
• They cut through the mix
• They have a more "analog/tape" sound that enhances digital recordings
• Can withstand sound levels in excess of 150db
• Have a built in compressor type action so you can record a cleaner uncompressed track

[newyorkbrass]

He he