Recording a concert grand piano

[Doozer]

Hello All,

I am going to be recording a piano recital at a university in 2 weeks. The concert grand piano and hall are excellent. I have two stereo pair of mics I am considering, Schoeps Mk21s and DPA 4006 with all available grid configurations. I won't have to much time for placement or adjusting the configuration.

I need a good starting position and that is the reason I am posting.

I was just going to go in with the 4006 pair with the silver free field grid in an AB configuration with about a 24 inch spread, 3' out from the rim near the curve of the piano, and I will angle the mics to align with the angle of the open lid, about 1' below the top of the lid.
I am afraid the MK21 may lack a bit in the high end, but I am welcoming any suggestions and comments on my thoughts. Maybe I could place a third mic under the piano just for kicks.
Thanks, Rick

[John Willett]

I would use the DPAs at about 20cm spacing on a stereo bar at about ear height and 2m back from the piano as my starting point.

Exact positioning will depend on the room and the music being played.

But I find I use the 20cm spacing most of the time for grand piano.

[hughesmr]

Of course, the room is the ultimate arbitor of mic position, but if it is a good room as you say, 3' is way too close for a good sounding pickup of classical piano IMO.

I'd probably be starting around 10-15' away with the 4006s, height set to just under the top of the open lid on full stick. Then move the array to tweak direct/reflected balance from there. Take your time, as it is a delicate balancing act. 24" spacing should be OK, but depending on the size of the instrument, hall and the rep being played, a "bigger" image might be nice too, so consider going up to 1m spacing of the capsules if warranted.

You really won't go wrong with the MK21s either, but if the room is really great I'd opt for omnis first.

[Thom]

I'll throw my 2 cents in, as well. I would use the DPAs with 40cm APEs on a stereo bar 20cm. As for distance in the concert hall I would say--if the room is really good--go with ear height to 7ft above stage if stand is in not on the stage and position the stand 8-10ft back from the piano. If you have the luxury add the Schoeps as a flanking pair, wider and farther back. I have been experimenting lately with 4 to omnis lately with a pair farther back to get some of the hall sound. I think it has offered some nice results--to my ears.

[joelpatterson]

I'd put the pair in NOS right staring down into the throat of the beast-- if there were Saran wrap from the edges of the open lid down to the rim of the box, my pair would just nudge the tiniest bulges into that plastic--right at the midpoint of the curve.

When the player gets to the most softest, sensitive note he's going to play-- or she's going to play-- I want to hear how they slap that key. I want to hear the force they give it, the heartbreak it implies, the trail of tears that got them to that note. I don't want that note to be a wobbly swirl that wafts around in the hall. I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT LIKE IT SOUNDED IN THE HALL! I want it to be the most delicate, intimate document, an up-close-and-personal testament of that person's playing. A recording that doesn't tell me what it was like to sit in the hall, but one that tells me what it was like TO BE IN THE PIANO!

[Corran]

It's interesting the differences of opinions in the distance. I'm doing a friend of mine's graduate piano recital in a few weeks and have been thinking about this myself.

Personally I like to have options. I'm planning on doing as joelpatterson states with a stereo ribbon in Blumlien (B&O BM-5) in the crook. Then I'll have a ORTF pair maybe 5 feet from there, and then an M-S setup in the hall about 10-12 feet from the piano. From there I'll be able to decide what I like...

But I'm thinking the closest mic is what I'll want. I agree that I want to hear the piano, not the hall (or just some of it).

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

When the player gets to the most softest, sensitive note he's going to play-- or she's going to play-- I want to hear how they slap that key. I want to hear the force they give it, the heartbreak it implies, the trail of tears that got them to that note.

I invite you to go to my website (TTL Audio Productions Home) and tell me what you think of the streaming sample on the homepage.

[jnorman]

i just did a CD of solo piano played on a 7'4" bosendorfer. i used a pair of DPA omnis about 5-6 feet out with a 30cm spread, in conjunction with an NOS pair of AT4051s just inside the case perhaps 2 feet above the soundboard.

the client is a well know classical pianist, and she was CERTAIN she was going to prefer the more traditional distant micing setup. i figured she would probably like a blend of the two pairs of mics, perhaps with a bit more weight given to the distant pair. as it turned out, however, we both wound up liking the close pair all by themselves, and that is what was used on the CD. my mastering engineer said it was as good a piano recording as he had heard in a long time. as mentioned above, i believe it was really the intimacy of the close mics that made the difference. i dont think i would have believed it either until i actually did it.

as a side note, i recorded this piano and player for a previous CD with a pair of DPA 4011s in NOS just outside the curve of the body, and that recording is also quite good (it IS an amazingly wonderful instrument), but the newer recording is clearly more enjoyable.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

I invite you to go to my website (TTL Audio Productions Home) and tell me what you think of the streaming sample on the homepage.

Well, you did ask me... I want to be as constructive as possible... the problem with this streaming sample is that the whole ball of yarn is too distant. The music is happening somewhere at a point that's too far away from where I am. The attacks of the notes in the upper registers are boxed in by a chalky, almost "honky-tonk" glaze-- the lower notes don't bloom and surround me, they never really reach me. They're trapped-- it's like I'm seeing all this through a sliding glass door that's closed.

Ask someone who sits at a piano and plays it-- the sound is enveloping like a warm wind, the density of furious passages is riveting and at it's best, scary. I want the lingering sound of hit piano notes to glisten and shine, not wilt immediately like a time-lapse dead rose. But then, to each is own, o' course.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

I'd probably be starting around 10-15' away with the 4006s, height set to just under the top of the open lid on full stick.

This is the advice to follow. I like the 4006's wide, set about 700mm wide if they are the only pair. The MK21's can be added as outriggers if necessary, but I doubt it, if the hall is good. Closer than 15' out will sound bad with full bodied classical playing, I know this because I have made this mistake many times.

[hughesmr]

To each is own is right, I guess.

This was recorded in a glorious recital hall, two 9' Steinways set up for the duo, lid off of the front instrument, full stick for the "back" instrument. Mics were Schoeps MK2S in 3' A/B, about 12' away from the front piano, height at just below top of the full-stick lid. (Also please take account that this is a 192 kB MP3, not the DSD original).

My taste is that I want to hear what the player is producing for the listeners, not necessarily what they hear themselves. When I hear an orchestra recording, I don't want to be sitting in the orchestra. In the duo sample, I hear no sacrifice in capture of the sensitivity in their touch, or the dynamic range resulting from the effort they put into their play, or the full spectrum of these instrument's timbre. Could it be more direct? Sure ... but to me, that's at the sacrifice of both the bloom of the room and more blatant capture of the "undesirables" (mechanical noises, grunts, etc).

For me, the room is an integral part of the sound produced IMO .... and if it's a great room, why hide it by miking so close? But, as I said, to each his own!

BTW, the pianists are award-winning internationally known players, and they love this sound. (In fact, at an earlier session, one of the pianists wanted a wetter sound than I initially settled on!)

Cheers!

[mosrite]

It sounds nice Michael.

What do you think if this and can you guess the Schoeps capsule used?

YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement

(not a Steinway though... unfortunately)

[Corran]

Well there's always the option of close and distance miking and blending to taste.

Personally I find your sample hughesmr just a tad too wet, and possibly because of the mp3 quality, lacking in the lows. Just an opinion...I'd be glad to show you the recording I'll be doing in a few weeks.

However the Brahms: Sonata in F# minor sample I like a lot better.

I like your site, I have a very similar one myself. I even charge pretty much the same rates!

[Corran]

Oh hey I forgot, I do have this recording of a piano duet (one piano, 4 hands). I did it a while ago and it was close miked with two Oktava 319s. I also had a hall mic, a ribbon, the Oktava ML-52.

I would do things differently now but I still like this recording. It was an experiment for me (the close-miking that is) so I'll do better next time...

[joelpatterson]

Yeah, I like the sound of that-- I get the shuddering as the low notes rumble and growl, and the delicacy of the high notes tinkling away.

Just to put rupees where my root canal is, here's a piano in a concert hall last summer, Mendelssohn's sweetly sad "Venetian Boat Song"-- two Earthworks QTC 30's peering over the edge of the open box.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Yeah, I like the sound of that-- I get the shuddering as the low notes rumble and growl, and the delicacy of the high notes tinkling away.

Just to put rupees where my root canal is, here's a piano in a concert hall last summer, Mendelssohn's sweetly sad "Venetian Boat Song"-- two Earthworks QTC 30's peering over the edge of the open box.

Hey Joel,

As you might guess, your sample is WAY too close for my taste!

Sounds like it's in an anechoic chamber ... I would have guessed that until I heard the audience at the end. Plus, dynamic range seems to be compressed as a result of the closeness, and though I know you like it, I don't go for the percussive sound picked up on the hammers when the music is p or mp.

But that's taste for ya ... if it's what you and the artist want, more power to ya! thumbsup

[Westmalle]

This is unnaturally close. Why!?!?!?!

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by mosrite

It sounds nice Michael.

What do you think if this and can you guess the Schoeps capsule used?

YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement

(not a Steinway though... unfortunately)

Hmmm ... I'd guess MK4 or MK21. Hard to tell with MP3, but since the LF is a touch thin, I'd guess the MK4??

For a more intimate perspective, this is a nice recording. I don't know anything about the piano or the room, but it's a good dynamic capture and there is still a touch of "air" around the sound.

[sonare]

Well, just to throw in another approach-- I like to put an SF12 or 24 about 8ft out and a pair of DPA 4003 (1m spacing) about 10 feet further. Precisely which condensers depends on the piano, the room, and the repertoire.

Height depends on how far out the mics are-- stand to the side of the piano and visualize a line that is equidistant between the top of the lid and the top of the "box"-- about 35 degrees. Have all the pairs of mics follow that line out into the room if possible. The furtherest mics will therefore be the highest. Some rooms and setups may suggest a third pair. A colleague recently did a solo piano in Carnegie Hall with 3 pair, and it sounds fabulous.

Regarding whether close or distant-- it's a matter or repertoire and personal taste. For me, Scarlatti, Haydn, Mozart or Bach takes the "close" treatment MUCH better than Debussy, Ravel, Chopin, or Scriabin. Beethoven is "in the middle." But the client is king-- make them happy and you just might get to do the next one.

Rich

[resound]

I much prefer hughesmr's approach to Joel's. I wouldn't even split the difference: maybe I'd want but 10 - 20% more of that close definition on the Lutoslawski to much more space to the Mendelssohn, especially with the delicate nature of the latter.

And I always love hearing music performed by those composers who lived and/or died after 1900. Bravo!

[joelpatterson]

It's all good, Michael-- I feel we are some lucky dogs who get to argue about listening to music all day long.

[mohthom]

The closer you get to the instrument, the more you're going to start hearing 'zones' of sound (hammers, soundboard, lid reflections etc.). Please be aware of nearfield and farfield mic technique, and why recording a well tuned, good quality solo piano in a good concert hall is not a good time to be using microphones in the nearfield.

When recording piano, I generally use a main pair of LDCs about 12 to 15 feet away (2nd row of the audience in the hall I use most often), along with a pair of omnis around 8 feet back and 12 feet out either side (total spread of around 24 feet). Please don't make notes of these measurements - you've got to find the ones that work for you! In addition to this I place two 'special effects' mics; one to capture the attack of the hammers and the thick texture on the bottom of the soundboard, and the other to capture the HF stuff that gets lost quickly (as well as some more 'human' noises - like breathing, key noise etc. - this is very important to me). These two microphones in the nearfield have very defined uses - I've got a clear idea of why I've got them where I have.

A good piano in a good room should be captured as that. Why go so close as to produce an artificial sound - when I go to concerts I don't have my head IN the piano!!! There IS a use for sound captured from there, but 90% of my mix comes from the main pair 12-15 feet out.

MohThoM

[Corran]

joel, I love the sample! Another reason I love Earthworks...they do the piano thing great! I only have one QTC-1 though...wish I could afford another one or two.

Yep, close micing the piano is the way to go IMO, with a blend of farther back mics as well. It's much more 'intimate.' To each his own...

[John Willett]

With grand piano I always use omnis (normally MKH 20, but my last project was with Neumann KM 183-D - next project will probably be with MKH 8020).

Directional mics lose the bottom end of the piano and it sounds thin in comparison.

This assumes solo concert grand, of course.

But spacing and distance is always a variable based on music and hall - I have had one very successful CD close mic'd, yet others I have gone quite a few metres back. It all depends on what sounds best on the day in the room.

Intimate chamber music would be closer than a piece written for a concert hall, for example.

I always only use two mics. - I don't like multi-path distortion.

[0VU]

There really is no 'answer' to this question.

It's so dependent upon the instrument, player, programme, room, and to some extent genre expectations, that even before the all over-riding personal taste comes into play there's probably as many approaches as there are combinations of pianos, players, rooms, etc. etc..

All I'd say to the OP is by all means start as you suggest but it's essential to keep an open mind and if you end up yards/ft/inches away from your starting point, it's just one of those things. There's no right or wrong; I'm not sure I've recorded pianos the same way from one to another, (bar a few series of discs where we had to match previous discs in the set).

If there's any way at all that you can get in there to experiment even for an short while with the pianist (and whomever is responsible for deciding the balance (if it's not you)) then do it - it's the only way you'll get a chance of finding your (or the client's) ideal setup for this specific job. Failing that, (or in addition) do what you can to find out what kind of sound is liked by the people responsible. Get them to give you specific exemplar recordings as well as a description so you can hear what they mean as a lot can get lost through terminology differences/different understandings of descriptions. You may produce a lovely intimate and completely artistically/technically valid recording only to find that what they were looking for was a more audience perspective, acoustically live/distant recording.

To have a chance of first time guessing at a setup for a specific piano recording in a venue you don't know, you need to get as much info as possible, both about the specific circumstances and the expected outcomes, and narrow down the variables, or you'll get as many answers to the question as there are people to answer it and not really be any further forward. Rather than asking for people's suggestions of how to mic up a piano, especially when you don't have the time to gain your own experience by trying out the many different possibilities that'll be offered, a much more useful question might be to ask for an explanation of why they do it in the way that they do and about their take on the mechanisms at work and their chosen interaction with them. Then at least, you'll start to fast track, from their experience, some of the knowledge needed to make your own decisions and act upon circumstances as you encounter them. It's important to be able to analyse what you do and recognise not only when something isn't working but, far more importantly, know what you need to do to make it go the way you want.

(None of this is meant harshly or patronisingly, but I can see that it might come across that way - so, no offence meant and apologies for any caused.)

[Doozer]

no apology needed. Thanks for all who took the to respond!

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I always only use two mics. - I don't like multi-path distortion.

John, very interesting point. I have been experimenting and dealing with this very problem over the last couple of piano recordings. I think outriggers with a good main pair in a good room is always better than just two mics, but the time of arrival distortion is annoying between the pairs if they are not time aligned.

Taking care to correctly time align the two pairs and making the direct to reverb ratio similar in both pairs brings untold riches and rewards in atmospheric sound quality picked up.

If you can't time align, multitrack record and time align later in post. This is also effective.