Mixing orchestral film scores -- How do they do it?

[tinmar]

Does anyone know how these top LA engineers control their orchestra dynamics while mixing movie scores, especially when some heavy percussions and loops are involved? Any particular piece of gear, (compressor) in addition to their great talent?

Thx for your comments,
Martin

[drBill]

Originally Posted by tinmar

Does anyone know how these top LA engineers control their orchestra dynamics while mixing movie scores, especially when some heavy percussions and loops are involved? Any particular piece of gear, (compressor) in addition to their great talent?

Thx for your comments,
Martin

The ones I know mixing orchestral scores tend to not use much compression. Maybe a little limiting if things are out of control. Film is one medium where dynamic range is still valued. I'm sure some of the remix engineers use some limiting though.

If I'm mixing stereo on a synthy score, sometimes I'll use a Manley Varimu across the 2 buss if I want a little mojo added, but that's more about the sound it brings than dynamic control.

[andy_simpson]

Originally Posted by drBill

The ones I know mixing orchestral scores tend to not use much compression. Maybe a little limiting if things are out of control. Film is one medium where dynamic range is still valued.

Thank goodness! They have plenty of headroom in the theatre systems so compression is not so useful.

In fact, when watching a film in the theatre it can be interesting to hear soundtrack music, which is often taken from commercial recordings.

Usually the old pre-60's tracks sound very big & alive but the modern cuts sound small & dead, which is not surprising since given the two to line up on a film score at equal volume levels, the modern compressed master will simply get a much lower fader position.

Sometimes one even follows the other during a film and the difference is not subtle.

Andy

[klaukholm]

The mix engineers from LA that come here go to great lengths to lower the noise floor and maintain maximum dynamics in their scores during tracking.
In the final mix it all depends on the context and the wishes of the composer.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by andy_simpson

Thank goodness! They have plenty of headroom in the theatre systems so compression is not so useful.

In fact, when watching a film in the theatre it can be interesting to hear soundtrack music, which is often taken from commercial recordings.

Usually the old pre-60's tracks sound very big & alive but the modern cuts sound small & dead, which is not surprising since given the two to line up on a film score at equal volume levels, the modern compressed master will simply get a much lower fader position.

Sometimes one even follows the other during a film and the difference is not subtle.

Andy

Um.. when placing sync licenses within a mix most of he time we get the UNMASTERED versions - or at least the ones without the limiter on.

As for orchestral mixing - these days - lots and lots of automation instead of compression, although a little bit of something like 1.2:1 just for a little punch is quite common. NOT so much on natural recordings, a la Naxos.... you'd get shot for using EQ, compression or tape on those gigs!

[celticrogues]

Originally Posted by ETM Dude

Here's an interesting interview with Alan Meyerson, who is a top score recordist/mixer (most of Hans Zimmer, James Newton Howard, John Powell etc. scores). Talks about percussion recording and his gear as well:

Alan Meyerson


Enjoy!

Cool article - thanks!

-Mike

[minister]

Originally Posted by tinmar

Does anyone know how these top LA engineers control their orchestra dynamics while mixing movie scores, especially when some heavy percussions and loops are involved? Any particular piece of gear, (compressor) in addition to their great talent?

Thx for your comments,
Martin

With their fingers...on actual faders. i think it is called "mixing".

[AKA]

Originally Posted by minister

With their fingers...on actual faders. i think it is called "mixing".

Couldn't have said it better !

[tinmar]

Thanks for your comments! and especially the interview with Alan Meyerson.

Now I wonder why all these studios have that amount of gear racked behind the mixing desk if just a few fingers and faders are the solution?...

[georgia]

all the gear? its' only a facade to make us look like we know what we're doing.

FWIW when I track and mix orchestras I try to keep the noise floor to the barest of nothingness. I track with a biaural head above the conductor, an XY pair, and I also set up a set of 5.0 mics around the orchestra very very high up and slightly down. Along with this i do spot mic(s) for each section and specials on the percussion. When I mix I use only the barest of minimum of anything to get the job done, trying to not use any of the individual mics... ( too much valve spit, chair squeek, page turn etc, for my taste ) I just use them when I need them.

Naural quality room, good players and conductor, and *lots and lots* of time spent in mic placement makes it all work well.

cheers
geo

[tinmar]

Thanks a lot georgia!!!
Just because my english is not good (living in Paris, France), what do you mean exactly with "5.0 mics around the orchestra"? Do you setup your mics all around the orchestra, in front of it, above it? Sorry if this sounds like a silly question...

[georgia]

I just grab 5 very large mic stands ( like the ones that go close to 3 or 4 meters up. I place them around the edge of the musicians and swing them over head a meter or to into the orchestra. The 5 mics are placed L, C, R, Ls, Rs in realtionship to the final playback system. I just like doing this and using these tracks as part of some of the mixes. I use a nice condenser, or tube depending on what is available at the scoring stage i'm tracking in.

I like to experiment with different techniques, so I probably way over mic a lot and use only a very smal potion of the tracks in the mix. For classical the more natural the better.


cheers
geo

[drakem]

Hi georgia
I´ve got a question. If you do the mix for the cinema do you do an extra mix for the TV version?
Last night I was watching 2 movies. One made at SkywalkerSound one made in Germany and was wondering why the second one sounded so sxity on my TV (simple one! no fancy gizmos). Regardless differences in performing and accoustics (natural or artificial).
I had the feeling that the other one was just a transferred cinema mix without checking how it sounds on the "grandmas TV".
Thank you for your answer in advance...

[georgia]

All depends on the client and the project. If they require a TV mix then we do one. If thy want one and can pay for it, we do one. A lot of clients either don't care or can't afford to mix the Cinema, TV and DVD versions. The funny part is that once you mix the cinema one, the other two are more of a cleanup/polish session than a full on mix or re-mix... Getting the same mix to sound good in three completely different mediums is hard to do without a bit of tweaking. Sometimes the client knows that this is the case but can simply not afford to do all the different versions, and they ask us to mix for cinema with an "ear" for broadcast and DVD... so we do the best we can to make it work moderatly well in all the mediums within the time and budget given us.

ya do what ya can.


cheers
geo

[b808]

Originally Posted by ETM Dude

Here's an interesting interview with Alan Meyerson, who is a top score recordist/mixer (most of Hans Zimmer, James Newton Howard, John Powell etc. scores). Talks about percussion recording and his gear as well:

Alan Meyerson


Enjoy!

I have great respect for Alan, He my hero!

[andy_simpson]

Originally Posted by drakem

....
Last night I was watching 2 movies. One made at SkywalkerSound one made in Germany and was wondering why the second one sounded so sxity on my TV (simple one! no fancy gizmos). Regardless differences in performing and accoustics (natural or artificial)....

It can be amazing just what kind of difference in RMS loudness there can be between rental movies on DVD, at least from the rental places here in Poland.

Has there been a parallel loudness war in the film industry?

Andy

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by georgia

When I mix I use only the barest of minimum of anything to get the job done, trying to not use any of the individual mics... ( too much valve spit, chair squeek, page turn etc, for my taste ) I just use them when I need them.

Naural quality room, good players and conductor, and *lots and lots* of time spent in mic placement makes it all work well.

Could not imagine saying it better.

[JohnRodd]

Originally Posted by tinmar

Does anyone know how these top LA engineers control their orchestra dynamics while mixing movie scores, especially when some heavy percussions and loops are involved? Any particular piece of gear, (compressor) in addition to their great talent?

Thx for your comments,
Martin

In terms of compression.....

When I mix a score, there isn't one piece of gear (either software or hardware) that gets used on every project...... I own a really wide variety of tools to use... depending on the project. So to answer your question... at least as far as what I do..... no - there isn't one piece of gear that is used more than any other. (in terms of compression)

I would also agree that fader moves are very important part of dynamic control.... as is great composition and orchestration.