suggestions on a pre for female opera singer

[jona]

am recording a female opera singer (mezzo sop) for album

have auralex treated room

gemini SE mic

any suggestions on a pre

should i be swapping from cubase to protools - have never been convinced the trouble is worth it to date - is this my inexperience or do I really not hear appreciable difference

[corworld]

What style of music?

[Spencypants]

From what I've done with female vocalists an API sounds great and can bring the voice abit forward or maybe a very clean pre (Millinnea maybe?). I use both Cubase and Protools and I like Cubase more because it sounds better in my opinion and is a million times better for mixing! Also try an SM7B I find it works extremely well with female vocalist especially powerful ones. It was the mic they used on MJ for Thriller and he could probably hit as many high notes as her! Also in this world of digital coldness I find condensers don't work as well as the do on tape for vocals and a dynamic sort of has a natural compression that sounds more natural to me!

[NathanEldred]

Anything from Buzz Audio. I used their Elixir on Soprano Mia Reeves (She's worked with Howard Goodall and done a lot of musical theatre), and it sounded great because it stayed beautiful and consistent in tone regardless of her dynamic output. No distortion at high volumes, still punchy at low volumes. The MA2.2 is even more detailed (faster slew rate and even quieter) and has more headroom too, so it just depends on your budget as they are both appropriate and great for this style of music. The mic we used was the Soundelux U99b in sub cardioid about 18" away.

[Plush]

The d.a.v. Electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 is the best mic amp in the world. (sm)

[JohnReelsound]

I have done two female sopranos recently ( in the nicest possible way!) and have settled on the AEA R84 ribbon going through a Focusrite isa 428. The ribbon's soft top end really takes all the screachy stuff out of the singer and the 428 gives it bags of clean gain.

John

[jona]

thanks for replies, sorry it's taken so long to answer but am still on this - so little time

anyway, to date have just been using an apogee mini me or mackie desk and have been really liking close mic'd lower registers i've been getting, and hence am wanting to take the plunge and spend up on a good pre

i'd really like to continue to close mic her tho' (i'm not an engineer, but i'm pretty sure it's not normal to close mic opera?), but of course am having trouble with distortion on the apogee, and even where the mackie desk allows for plenty of head room, the upper registers at high volume are not that pleasant

is there any pre i can use to get those sweet upper registers at high volume without distortion when close mic'ing opera? should i be compressing/limiting on the way in to help (was trying to avoid any processing as much as possible)

[Plush]

Jona, the answer is no.
It has nothing to do with the mic preamp or the mic. YOu are simply too close to the singer.

Please move your mics back and include more room sound in what you are trying to capture. Any microphone and any mic amp should do.

[Audiop]

The mic is very likely to distort more than the pre and solution to that is, as Plush mentioned, to back off a bit. Also loud singing can be harsh in itself. Have you been in the same room while she was singing?


/Peter

[jona]

Originally Posted by Audiop

The mic is very likely to distort more than the pre and solution to that is, as Plush mentioned, to back off a bit. Also loud singing can be harsh in itself. Have you been in the same room while she was singing?


/Peter

thanks for that. yes i know it's an odd request and am very aware that close mic'ing opera is not the norm, however i'm not wanting a normal opera sound - that's the whole point. as i said, close mic'ing the lower register gave me the sound i wanted. i just want the same in the upper register, but of course she's singing out there. i can get it so there's no distortion up there on the mackie desk, but it's just not that pleasant. i should say i guess that she's not right on top of the mic - i've been experimenting with say half a metre to a metre.
hence as the mic has been consistent and the pre's have been the thing i've changed, i assumed it was the pre's i was using - yes?

[jnorman]

jona - from my experience, if you are using a spaced pair of omnis for this application, you will need to be about 4-5 feet out from the performer to capture a realistic sound. for cards in ORTF, perhaps 7-8 feet out at minimum. if you are trying to close mic with a single mic, at 3-4 feet, you are going to need a really flat mic like a tlm170 or u89 or maybe even a ribbon to get a smooth result.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by Plush

Jona, the answer is no.
It has nothing to do with the mic preamp or the mic. YOu are simply too close to the singer.

Please move your mics back and include more room sound in what you are trying to capture. Any microphone and any mic amp should do.

Listen to this sound advice. You then might realize, that your room is not up to the task...

If you want a close but warm sound, experiment with the position of the mic first in the median plane and then also laterally. That gives the biggest differences in timbre. To the power of several dimensions more than a mic pre ever could. (Hint: there is no law that a singer has to sing directly into the microphone)

And from an engineering point of view (after you have found the best possible sound by choosing the best position of the mic) you are looking at manipulating the frequency response of the source, possibly depending on the level.

That means (open textbook)... EQ, or for the more advanced dynamic EQ/Compression with EQ in sidechain... (close textbook). Be subtle.

[jona]

thanks again for the great info...

Listen to this sound advice. You then might realize, that your room is not up to the task...

hence why i'm trying to get rid of it as much as possible . it's not disastrous though, and it's auralex treated, but it's only 2.5 x 3.5 metres

If you want a close but warm sound, experiment with the position of the mic first in the median plane and then also laterally. That gives the biggest differences in timbre. To the power of several dimensions more than a mic pre ever could. (Hint: there is no law that a singer has to sing directly into the microphone)

good point, have experimented much with mic position but not in lateral plane - will give it a go

And from an engineering point of view (after you have found the best possible sound by choosing the best position of the mic) you are looking at manipulating the frequency response of the source, possibly depending on the level.

That means (open textbook)... EQ, or for the more advanced dynamic EQ/Compression with EQ in sidechain... (close textbook). Be subtle.

well that's the thing - in the lower registers i have this lovely warm intimate sound i'm really liking even without eq or compression. If i add just a touch of eq and compression, it just sounds better. In the upper register at higher volumes, i get a sound that's ok but it gets worse with esp compression (i'm using Duende btw), which is why i'm thinking it's a distortion that i'm starting with esp as it happens more when i record on the apogee, which seems to have much less headroom than the mackie desk.

Hence, back to the pre....

So are you guys saying that i should be able to get that pure sweet upper register from either the apogee or the mackie pres? I thought that possibly they weren't appropriate for the demands of opera?

[audio ergo sum]

Sorry to disappoint you, but with that room dimensions just forget about it.

And not only because the room will sound what it is, small and boxy, no matter how treated it is which will only make it dead. No classical singer will feel comfortable singing in such a room and will not be able to give a good performance.

And definitely forget about the preamp, in this scenario it is practically irrelevant.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Plush

The d.a.v. Electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 is the best mic amp in the world. (sm)

+2

if you cant get an amazing sound with Mick's amps

it aint the amp

[jona]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

Sorry to disappoint you, but with that room dimensions just forget about it.

And not only because the room will sound what it is, small and boxy, no matter how treated it is which will only make it dead. No classical singer will feel comfortable singing in such a room and will not be able to give a good performance.

And definitely forget about the preamp, in this scenario it is practically irrelevant.

Yes, good points, but again, therein lies the problem. Remember, i'm not recording a standard classical performance. The album has many elements of traditional classical composition, however it will be a contemporary sound in the end, as i'm using mainly samples with only a few real instruments in the mix. Though the instruments will be mainly orchestral, i'm also not aiming for the traditional filmic sound we hear so often with samples and opera. I'm after a more raw, intimate chamber sound if anything, and my boxy room pulls it off very well. On top of this, my singer is very good, and yes, although initially put off by the small room, actually learnt to work it to full advantage within only a few takes.

I tried to record her in a not bad sounding 6m x 5m room with more distance on the mic, and spent forever trying to eq the room out (which of course is a useless scenario, but i had to try) in order to get her to sit in the mix with the samples better. And then adding extra reverb, compression etc was even worse. As said, i'm not an engineer, but the result was not good. It was this room that started all my problems with the "distortion" that i never had in the smaller room (i didn't seem to be able to get the levels down and the mic far enough away to get rid of the harsh upper register sound-hence thought i needed a pre with more headroom to bring the mic back in again).

Hence, the boxy room was much easier for me to work with, and though my budget can afford to treat the bigger space, i just think i'm giving myself variables that aren't worth it for my purposes in the end anyway.

Possibly I should be saying "chamber theatre" rather than opera, tho' the word theatre certainly doesn't sum up the music, it would probably suit the mixing and recording better. Eg it's supposed to be a much smaller scale.

So in the chain of room(small & dead or bigger with room sound in mix), mic (SE gemini), pre(apogee and mackie), computer (cubase), verbs (waves and altiverb), comp/eq (duende) and remembering the lower register is good, the upper register at loud volumes is the problem, any further thoughts on how to get those sweet uppers?

[audio ergo sum]

Good luck and one last tip: I would give her a good amount of reverb, tweaked to taste, in her own headphones, so she has the illusion of singing in a much bigger room.

It can make the voice sound much better, open, relaxed. The effect can be much bigger than anything you could possibly achieve electronically later.

[Gaston69]

Crookwood Pre-Amps are the best