remote consoles

[hollywood_steve]

Whenever the topic of remote classical recording consoles is mentioned, the console is invariably a Studer; either a 089, a 169 or a 269. (I was surprised to learn recently that the recent 961 / 962 models that replaced the 169/269 is not so highly regarded, and that's mostly due to its IC-based circuitry, in comparison to the discrete 169.) But once you move past these little Studer desks, there are few other notable choices. We know that a large number of classical recordings are made with a simple stereo pair going straight to stereo, with no need for a mixer. But for nearly 50 years, guys have been dragging consoles to location sessions; either to create stereo mixes on the fly for 2 track recording, or for use on multi-track recordings. A lot of different consoles have been used during all those years, but which models, other than the little Studers, are favorites of the classical engineers? What are the best alternatives to those Studers, whether last seen in the 60s or models still in current production? (not interested in battery powered film sound mixers or monster studio desks that are transported around the country in a back of a truck.) I'm talking about small footprint, high quality consoles whose audio performance is good enough that classical engineers considered them worthy. What did they use back then or what would you use tomorrow if you needed a mixer for a classical gig. (for the sake of this discussion, my interest is limited to analog models).

Thank you.

[Nathanael]

If you search back on rec.audio.pro and a few other places, you'll wind up with a very short list. Most of these items are also used by the film location sound guys. They have a good newsgroup - check google. Very expensive - very trick. Some of the new ones have recorders and converters built in. Aaton Cantar, Zaxcom Deva V, etc. Last time I looked, these were battery operated - designed for field work - like a real field - ie. movie set with no A/C.

I came to the conclusion that as cool as they are, they aren't exactly what I'm looking for in classical situations. I've got A/C, and I want the last tick of quality.

I'm thinking that I'm going to build a small summing buss with pan pots, and use a pre for gain.

I guess this is how it works... no one makes what you want, so you make it.

I suppose the Dangerous 2 bus thingy could be a contender.

[hollywood_steve]

Aaton Cantar, Zaxcom Deva V, etc. Last time I looked, these were battery operated - designed for field work - like a real field - ie. movie set with no A/C.

I came to the conclusion that as cool as they are, they aren't exactly what I'm looking for in classical situations. I've got A/C, and I want the last tick of quality.

I agree, I just don't want to get involved with battery operated gear. So, forgetting those, what else have guys used?


I suppose the Dangerous 2 bus thingy could be a contender.

Curious why you'd suggest the 2-bus instead of their line mixer?

Come on............ what else was used over the years?

[Plush]

Although it's pretty much a necessity to have a good digital console at your disposal for classical work, I DO prefer an analog console feeding an outboard very high end a/d converter.

Here we are running some Neve 5442 8X2 consoles. This is the table top version of the Neve "South African Radio" console with very good pre-amps and 40dB of headroom. Some have dumped on this console for not being discrete design. Don't listen to the nay-sayers. These same consoles were used by Decca records for years--so if you like the sound of 70's and 80's Decca, that's what you're hearing. They are available on Ebay from $3000.00 to 6000.00.

Other good location consoles we've used are the Sonosax line, and Studer 169. For your info, Studer also made a small 6 channel console, the A779, that has the same mic pre-amps as the 169.

Good Line mixers are in short supply. Marketing and "Image" concerns have turned the available ones into very expensive, narrow range of use units. However, having one built is a good alternative.

For what it's worth, we can also endorse the new Yamaha DM1000 digital console. It's MUCH better than the older 02R and 03D sound with top notch converters and much improved mic amps. Deutsche Gramophon has specified these as their new set up.

[fifthcircle]

When I was a student at the Eastman School of Music in Rochester, NY, in one of the main studios we had an old Neve broadcast mixer. It was quite small (much smaller than a BCM-10 or similar mixer) and sounded quite excellent. Being that I was young and not the gearslut then, I unfortunately don't remember the model number.

More recently, before I went multitrack with my recorders, etc... we used good preamps (Vac Rac pres) and a line mixer that Steve Firlotte of Inward Connections made. I believe that line mixer has turned into the rack summing mixer that they have since released under the that name (unfortunately, I cannot remember the name of it and the boutique audio website is under construction).

--Ben

[jazzbutcher]

Does anyone know what the differences are between the Studer 169 and 269??? Are they both discrete? Same pre's?

As for what classical people use these days, I don't really know, except I recently saw a guy with a Spider and he said he loved his for the choir work he was doing.


thanks,
-dave

[Plush]

Studer 169 and 269 are the same thing--with the 269 being the larger version with more inputs. 169 was typically a 10X2 or a 8X4 console. Both versions can accomodate stereo line in modules so that the board could have even more inputs.

Studer reversed the model numbers in the next itteration of the consoles. 961 and 962 are chip based, unlike the former. They also sound very good and it would be only a fool who badmouthed the 961(2) which are still in production.

Since when do chips, used in a well designed systems approach, mean bad sound? That's a totally uninformed notion.

[hollywood_steve]

Studer 169 and 269 are the same thing--with the 269 being the larger version with more inputs

There's got to be more to it than that as I've seen several 8x2 269s and at least one 12x2 169.

961 and 962 are chip based, unlike the former. They also sound very good and it would be only a fool who badmouthed the 961(2) which are still in production.


As I tried to make clear earlier, that is just the response that I have received when I have inquired about that model. Personally, unless I could hear a noticeable difference, I would certainly prefer a new board over a 30 year old model, everything else being equal. But several folks have remarked that the 961/962 didn't sound as nice as the old series and they gave the "chip vs discrete" difference as a possible reason. Something tells me that I'd be happy with any of them......

But what other studio brands get dragged to concert halls or other acoustic music location sessions? I know that the BBC had custom remote desks built by a variety of manufacturers, from Neve, Calrec, CADAC, etc. Other than the Neves (silly prices) do any of those other little boards show up on sessions these days?

Others?

[Plush]

Please look at the manuals for the Studer 169 and 269. You'll see that the 269 is a larger frame console. That IS the difference. Yes, you could have seen a 12X2 169. It could have been a custom console or one with a combination of stereo line input modules and mono mic pre modules. An 8 channel 269 would be rare beast because that would mean that is is short loaded with less modules than it would normally accomodate. Still, anything is possible.

There were rarely any "small" consoles in use by Euro broadcasters. Usually "portable" meant it can be moved by two people!

One of the more interesting newer analog consoles available is by Cadac.
It is interesting because it is set up to be able to record a stereo mix and a surround mix at the same time. It's called a location mixer in their literature, but is big, heavy and selling for around $40,000. It is very good sound but takes 3 people to move it around.

I believe that the console is important, but not the MOST important thing for a good recording. Most classical people are using outboard mic amps. A portable easy to use control surface is most important as is full range frequency response.

This is a a sampling of what I've seen and used on high end sessions in the US and Europe:
Barth console (Germany)
Studer 169, 961, 962
Neve 54 series
Neotek Series I and II
Sonosax
Soundcraft 200B
Yamaha 02R, 03D, DM1000, DM 2000

Various mic amps in use by super heavy duty engineers and tonmeisters include:
original Focusrite ISA 110
Vac-Rac tube mic amps
E.A.R. tube mic amps
Crookwood Paintpots (remote controlled)
Benchmark mic amps
Lawo mic amps
many others

[Coolstuff]

Forgive me if I digress, but you were really on to something when you mentioned the Zaxcom Deva. If you are looking to capture the very last nanoHz of information, take a serious look at the new Deva II, IV, or V. Yes, they CAN be battery powered, they can also be externally powered.

More importantly, it is the last word in cutting edge design and quality. Look at what the Deva V offers in a single unit:

*Very high end preamps
*An extensive 16 x14 mixing matrix
*10 channels of 24 bit / 196kHz recording
*120dB dynamic range
*up to three simultaneous recordings possible on HDD & DVD_Ram for backups / producer's copy
* records multiple sample rates / file formats simultaneously
*Extensive metadata for track info

And that's just getting started.

Don't forget the optional 100mm 12 fader mixing surface.

You can even get it with a built-in Soundfield decoder for monitoring.

And reliable? All this in one piece of equipment that has been built to withstand the riguers of location recording at high G's in any weather and has even withstood a building fire - coming out charred black with the display burned beyond recognition, and it still payed back!

Get more info at http://www.zaxcom.com/audio/deva5.shtml

[Nathanael]

Check out Gotham Sound (www.gothamsound.com). They specialize in location recording stuff - particulary for picture. They have a wide variety of small mixers - all pro stuff.

[artapril]

A friend of me is doing really great classical recordings with this one: http://www.calrec.com/product/m3.htm

[sonare]

FYI there is a Studer 269 on eBay at the moment:

<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT>

Rich

[0VU]

Looking at the higher end UK based classical specialist facilities, consoles popular over the last 15 years or so seem to be:

Audient ASP

DDA D Series
DDA S Series
DDA Interface

Neotek Elite

Raindirk Symphony

Studer 269
Studer 961/962

The digital fans mostly copied DG and went for a Yamaha DMC1000 then moved on to DM2000 / DM1000 and some people use the 02R96 and one very succesful facility were early adopters of the original 02R and 03D. They've now moved on to an 02R96 but still use the older boards.

The lower end of the market seems to be dominated by the Mackie 1604. I'm told it's because "the preamps are so good and we don't use the eq". Fair enough but if you're using the @#~$** horrible mix buss you might as well use the eq! (not a Mackie fan )

Being a complete gear tart (or should that be slut ) I have:

Alice Soundtech Series A 8:2 (I don't very often use it for classical recording - though I know someone that does. Mine is configured with RIAA line inputs, Telco channels and a couple of mic channels for RSL/small scale radio station work.
BTS 8:2 (Neve design similar to a simplifed 5432 suitcase but in some ways better.)
Calrec Minimixer 12:2
DDA D Series 4:2, 12:2, 28:8:2 and 16 input sidecar that works with any of the others
DDA Interface 16:2, 40:4:2
Neve 5432 (drop through) 8:2 x 2,
Neve BCM 10 10:2
Sonosax SX-PR 6:2
Studer 962 14:4 and 18 input sidecar, 10:2
Studer 963 48:8:2
Summit TMX420 4:2 line mixer
Yamaha DMC1000 (token digital board )

I really should probably thin out the console collection a bit

Calrec and Cadac make lovely boards but they're extremely expensive (you get what you pay for though) and seem to be overlooked by most commercial operators. The BBC and other broadcasters use quite a few Calrecs. but they're pretty thin on the ground outside that.

Cadac found a niche in high end (and very expensive) PA desks and only recently returned to producing a recording desk (C-Type). It's a superb product but way out of most people's price range.

Neotek are expensive over here and have no real UK representation (afaik) so are pretty rare. DDA D Series was generally felt to be a near enough equivalent for it not to be a problem.

The UK market for classical facilities is in dire straits at the moment and new investment in high end gear is very small. A few companies have updated to digital consoles but there's very little work with all the labels cutting their schedules to the bone. I was recently told by one of my clients that they've been told that their complete recording budget for a standard classical CD is now £2000 (there's more money for certain "special projects" but not much). That's to cover everything to the master stage - artist fees, venue fees, engineering, production, editing, mastering. It's not going to be easy to make money on that kind of fee - even if you're a one man band doing engineering, production and post-production! I only hope it's not going to become the new standard rate!

The whole thing in the larger part of the market has been artist led for a while now. There's only a few record companies doing things the traditional way.

It's a sad state of affairs that's driving the whole thing downmarket and, as it becomes increasingly difficult to earn a decent commercially viable fee for the job, into the hands of hobbyists and part time engineers who have day jobs that pay for the gear and who record for the love of it. Not necessarily a bad thing as they're often real enthusiats who love it, buy really good gear and put in huge efforts to get the best result they possibly can. Unfortunately, because they are doing it for love and often do a good job, they're driving down the overall rates and soaking up a lot of the easy/small scale bread-and-butter type work leaving only the really large scale stuff that they aren't equipped for. The touble is that without the background small scale jobs it isn't really cost effective to equip for the much less frequent large scale jobs. There's also a lot of "interested amateurs" who think that because they can record their mate's band rehearsing and it "sounds ok" then they can use the same <<£1000 of gear to record a classical CD/concert. It's hard but that's the competition.

Still, it seems to be the same everywhere in the industry at the moment. The middle ground is not the place to be just now. There's still (just about) room for a few high end facilities and the small scale one-man-bands will be ok as their investment and overheads are low but you wouldn't want to be a jobbing middle of the road facility.

[hollywood_steve]

OK, forgetting the very large Studer, DDA and Yamaha models, which of your extensive collection would you recommend for someone interested in an easily portable mixer with less than 16 inputs?(no mic preamps required)

I don't know of too many people with actual experience using this variety of consoles on remote classical work.

Do you have a preference for the little Studer vs the Neves or the Calrec? My budget will not allow for a new Cadac C-type, so I'm looking at the available used mixers.

[0VU]

hollywood_steve:
OK, forgetting the very large Studer, DDA and Yamaha models, which of your extensive collection would you recommend for someone interested in an easily portable mixer with less than 16 inputs?(no mic preamps required)

I don't know really. I was all set to say DDA Interface, Studer 961/962 or Neve 543/4 but then I saw you didn't want mic pres and it threw me

I think I'd still go with either the DDA or the Studer - or maybe check out the new Speck line mixer (though it's blend of facilities doesn't suit me and I won't be buying one).

The DDA Interface is a really neat little console. Frame sizes from 8:4:2 (rackmountable) up to (afaik) 40:4:2 and a load of different module choices (many of which are still available from DDA). The preamps are fine - nothing esoteric but quiet, clean sounding and perfectly useable for classical work (if you'd rather not carry outboard preamps), the eq is ok too, again, there's nothing really special about it but it's smooth, musical and does it's job with no nasty surprises and the overall sound of the console adds up to be very useable. It's quiet, very neutral (bordering on bland) and there's plenty of headroom. It's a lot like a stock D Series but quieter, slightly smoother and without the slight crosstalk problems of an unmodified D Series.

One really outstanding feature for me is that all the mono mic/line channels have a direct out which can be switched between post fade or prefade with it's own level control (it steals a pot from the aux sends to do this) - great for running multitrack backups of stereo mixes.

My little Interface is a modified rackmount version. The standard configuration for a rackmount is 8:4:2 but mine has a smaller frame and the groups replaced by 4 stereo mic/line channels to give me 16 mic inputs (only 8 have direct outs though) or occasionally I fit it with up to 12 mono mic/line if I need the extra directs. If racked, it'd be 13U high (plus 2U for connectors) and a separate 2U PSU. There's also a desktop version of the same frame size; the difference being that the rackmount is a square metal box about 8" deep and the desktop is a wedge shaped box, that angles the controls towards you, with some pretty(!) plastic trims and a padded armrest. (There's a pic of a 16:4:2 (next size up) desktop version with a closeup of the mono mic/line input strip here.

The build quality is good, the master section is a single panel fronting two PCBs but all the channels are modular - 1 panel for one board - so they're easy to swap out. There's a lot of surface mount components however so maintenance could be a bit tricky. Thankfully, my two (and the others I know of) have been completely reliable
and I've never needed to do more than dust them! Apart from a few electronic mods, the biggest mod I did on the rackmount frame was to chop off a load of metal to make it a wedge shape instead of a square box. It still rack mounts but now takes up a lot less rack volume and it's easier to use on a table top.

A couple of dislikes now; The XLR connectors used are crap! Plastic, non-locking XLRs with bent metal pins that tarnish if you so much as look at them. I'm told they're not a problem but I replaced all mine with proper Neutrik gold pin versions. The other dislike is that the console incorporates muting relays in the master outputs which are controlled by the PSU. They're there to keep the outputs muted until the PSU is stable (it contains a time delay circuit which energises the relays a short while after power up). I have no desire to use this and the fact that it ties you to a specific PSU and adds a potential source of problems worried me. Solution - simple. About 30 minutes with a soldering iron and some chem-wick and the relays are removed and wired out. I can now use the console with any PSU capable of +/-17V (or 18V) , 0V and 48V and I have no worries about the relays going dodgy and taking my master outputs down. I have a few other niggly dislikes with it like the oscilator has only one frequency, the talkback is pretty basic (though you can use phantom powered mics if you set the internal link) and the metering is LED bargraphs. It's accurate enough but I prefer either proper bargraph plasma meters or something with needles in! The last few points are pretty trivial though and combined with all the good points of the console haven't stopped me buying two of them!

The Interface is comparatively light in weight but is very robust and seems to put up with life on the road without any problems. If you work a lot in dark corners, you might appreciate the Littlelite connector on the master section. It's just a single BNC and is not dimmable but it might come in handy.

The Studer 961/962 would also be a superb choice. In stock form it lacks the direct out (but it is a retrofittable option) though you could always use the insert sends with some suitable cables. It's a very different sounding console from the DDA more characterful and several steps up in terms of build quality and general electronic design but that said it's not so much "better" that I'd ignore the DDA. Studers tend to be a lot more expensive than the little DDAs but they're lovely consoles and you do seem to get what you pay for. The build quality is outstanding - but that also makes them (very) heavy. The sound is first rate - there's already loads of stuff on various fora, including Gearslutz, where people describe it and why it's such a great console so perhaps do a search for more info. (this post is long enough already!) There's also loads of options and variations for the Studer - particularly in the master section and frame design - so make sure you check out specifically what you're getting. Reliability seems to be excellent - though I've only had my 962s for about a year - and Studer's service backup is of course legendary so I'd have no fears about long term useability.

I think, if you can afford it I'd go for the Studer. The DDA is an excellent little console (a million times better than any Mackie!) but is was built to a price - the Studer is much more of a no-compromise build and if it's combination of sound and facilities hit the spot it's very hard to better it.

The other consoles on my list are all fine consoles in their own right but perhaps wouldn't be first choice material (apart from maybe the little Neves or, if you like the sound, the Calrec).

[0VU]

hollywood_steve:
I don't know of too many people with actual experience using this variety of consoles on remote classical work.

I wouldn't use everything on the list for remote work. Some of it is just too big and heavy. Some of it I've got because I've bought it over the years and not sold it, some I have because I do more than just one type of work - it's not all purist/direct to stereo stuff and some is just because I can't resist a bargain (If you ask my wife she says it's because I'm a hoarder, can't resist filling the house with junk and can't make up my mind! Women )

Do you have a preference for the little Studer vs the Neves or the Calrec? My budget will not allow for a new Cadac C-type,

I don't know many people whose budget will allow for it! It's very nice though.

About the others, no, not really - apart from the Studers definitely being the ones I now use most. I use them for different things and choose according to the kind of sound I want. The Studers are possibly the most flexible of the three - certainly in terms of facilities - and sonically there's nothing I wouldn't do with them.

The little Calrec is a lovely thing and packs a huge amount of tricks into a tiny space (12:2 that fits into the drawer of a filing cabinet) I just find the sound a little cold/clinical. Not in a neutral/bland sort of way - more a soulless slightly detached sort of way. There's nothing really wrong with it but I'm preferring the other consoles. It's a tiny bit noisy in comparison to some of the others (no worse than the Neves) and hums very, very slightly on it's monitor outputs (almost inaudible on monitors except at high levels and measurable but not really audible on outputs) if you use it's internal PSU. An external PSU/battery supply fixes that but it's annoying when you notice it. At the moment it's in bits. I took it apart over a year ago and started re-capping it (which does help the noise floor enormously and makes it a bit creamier sounding) but the boards are so densely packed and have such tiny tracks that it's a really fiddly, slow job and I lost interest when I got the Studers. It's really bad of me and I should finish it and sell it or use it or something!

The small Neves are great little consoles - very under-rated imo. They were the first "real" console I ever used and I've liked them ever since. They do have a distinct sound that's got a lot of "Neveness" in it - not quite as much as an 80 series or Melbourne and it's not as instantly recognisable but I like that about them. Until I got the Studers I used them on most of the more quality concious classical stuff and almost all my jazz work. I'm using them less now I've got the Studers as I used to find that the Neve imparted a little upper mid crunchiness/agression that didn't work on some things. It's actually one of the things I like about them on a lot of things and when it doesn't work it's not too hard to work around but the Studers don't do it and as they're much more flexible and not that much heavier the Neves go out less.

I think that when it comes to thinning out the hardware the first things on the disposal list will be the Calrec, one of the small Neves, the Alice Soundtech and the biggest DDA D Series. I'll be quite sad to see them go but I don't use them all enough to justify keeping them and I desperately need the space; the cash would be useful too! There again, I've been threatening myself with selling them for about 5 years now but I always seem to find an excuse not to. Pathetic isn't it!

[0VU]

Oh, and the difference between a Studer 961 and a 962 really is just the frame size.

The 961 can hold up to 14 modules (total of input, output, monitoring, remotes and customs) The 962 can hold up to 20 modules.

The choice of modules available to each is the same and they come in a wide range of packages; studio frames, portable frames, rackmont versions, with/without different types of meter bridges, monitoring and comms, 2/3/4 output busses, remote control interfaces and pretty much anything else that'll fit into the frame!

There's also a "slave" (all input) console available in either of the two frame sizes (14/20) for use as an expander to another console.

But whatever the style/shape of frame and regardless of it's contents - if it's bigger than 14 modules it's a 962.

[hollywood_steve]

I don't know really. I was all set to say DDA Interface, Studer 961/962 or Neve 543/4 but then I saw you didn't want mic pres and it threw me

I don't NEED mic preamps, but I also realize that the chance of finding a small format, used console without preamps is almost zero.

I had forgotten all about the DDA Interface. I had given that model a good look several years ago when looking for a console for my last multi-track rock studio. Looking at the link you supplied, I find the Interface to be remarkably similar to a certain variety of Soundcraft Delta - to the point where they look to be re-badged versions of the same mixer. THis might not be the case, but the similarities are very strong.

The little Neves would be a great choice, but they are priced at least double their utility value just due to the name. For the price of any little Neve here in the USA, I could get a much nicer Studer 961/2. (but the little Studers seem to be gaining in popularity and price - while all analog consoles are dropping in price, the Studers are the ONLY brand that I have noticed raising in value on the used market - DAMN!) Two years ago, any of the little Studers were almost un-sellable on the used market. One sat in a local LA store for over 3 years and the price dropped from $5k to half that, in $500 chunks every six months. I never learned if it eventually sold at around $2,500 or if the consignment owner just pulled it from the strore. Too bad I didn't need the board back then.......

The new Speck has some very strong points, but I don't think that it is available in smaller configurations. My needs are for an 8x2 mixer, but I realize the scarcity of that size, so I am open to a mixer with 10, 12 or at most 16 inputs (but I REALLY would prefer less than 16). The Speck offers 16 channel strips providing 32 inputs and the cost reflects all of that circuitry. I'll try to talk to Vince at the AES show and see if he has made a decision regarding smaller frames (8 channel strips?) or a short-loaded version of the standard frame.

The new Tonelux line (www.tonelux.com) seems to be the closest thing to what I really need. 8ea of the MX2 modules and a stereo master module and I'd be all set. (I just wish I could get mine without any of the 4 Aux sends per module.)

I've also looked at some of the larger "film" sound mixers from Cooper, PSC, Sonosaz, etc. But finding one with 8ch is not easy and much of the cost goes towards features that I do not need, from mic preamps to battery power.

Right now the Tonelux is looking good, but I've learned the hard way that being one of the 1st customers for a new product is not always a good idea. I have no idea if the Tonelux line is ready to ship or still just a great idea. In any event, this year's AES show should offer the best selection of new hardware every available - I can't imagine coming home without making some kind of deal.

[0VU]

I know what you mean about the difficulty of finding a really good quality small mixer.

The Sonosax mixers are very good and he construction is a work or art but their prices - at least in the UK - are pretty amazing! You're paying Cadac/upper Calrec type prices just to get something that's really really small without sacrificing sound quality. The same is to some extent true of Cooper. Not quite as bad as Sonosax but still a lot of money. And neither seems to come up on the secondhand market over here. I've seen one small (4:2) Cooper and a couple of little Sonosax SX-PRs but that's it.

I agree about the Neves. I got mine before they got really expensive and the 543 is still much cheaper than the "classic" Neves. An 8:2 is worth about £1200 - £1500 I guess - I don't know for sure though, they don't come up for sale very often. They're still overpriced for a comparatively basic console. They are at least well put together though. That said, they're much cheaper than the equivalent Studer 961 over here.

I don't know about the DDA/Soundcraft thing. I remember hearing talk about some ...er...crossing over of design ideas and the legal guys geting involved but I'm not sure who ripped off whose design. I could be wrong but I vaguely remember it was the DDA's feature set being rather too much like the Soundcraft's. I do know that the DDA was also sold as the Dynacord Interface as they were both part of Mark V group at the time. I don't know all the Soundcraft Delta consoles but the DDA sounds much better than the Delta I was given to use on a job once, not sure which one it was though.

An interesting little anomally about the Interface is that if you look at the PCBs it has sockets to take extra routing switches/components and spare ways in the ribbon cable to make it an 8 buss console. The group modules have all the extra busses and links to do it too (on the schematics they're marked as "optional" but I've never seen an 8 buss Interface). You'd have to punch/drill all the channel metalwork to use it but it could be an interesting project for someone who's bored.

I've never seen the Tonelux before - thanks for the link

Have you looked at the Millennia Media Mixing Suite? I've been getting to like their stuff more and more. A friend of mine got the NSEQ EQ and Twincom Compressor and he had to beat me off them lol. I got a couple of the STT-1 channel strips last year and just added two more so I can use them with the Summit TMX420 as a really nice sounding 4:2 mixer. I was thinking about seeing if I could try a small mixing suite system as if it lives up to the rest of the range it'll be beautiful but it's not exactly dealer stock in the UK. I was looking out for a used one that I could buy and try without risking a load of depreciation if I decide to sell it again.

I've been looking for a really high quality *simple* line mixer for a while. I've got quite a few outboard preamps and it's sometimes a pain to carry a whole console for something that just needs panning, pfl/solo, decent summing amps, linear faders and talkback/monitoring facilities. I was wondering about the summing boxes like the Dangerous things but they' don't have everything on the list. I did have quite an interesting chat with one of the better European audio manufacturers last week and something might come of that but it's early days. I get the impression that the US market for audio gear is still quite buoyant - much more than the UK/Europe. Maybe I should get out to AES this year and see what's around.

[sonare]

Have you considered the Manley 16x2 line level mixer? Fits in a rack, but not cheap--$9k new from the factory. Don't know if deals can be had via dealers.

Rich

[Plush]

Hi Hollywood Steve,

I can heartily recommend the Neve 54 series. I cannot agree that these 8 channel consoles are overpriced in the market. I see them going for $2500.00 to $4500.00 on Ebay. We bought ours new for $ 10,000 in 1986.

They are a basic design with two aux. sends, (return is on a dedicated stereo return so you don't have to use up input channels) 40dB of headroom, (try finding that on others) transformer in and out for noise free interfacing, 80dB of gain on the mic amp for ribbon mics. EQ is perfectly tailored for acoustic recording with boost/cut at 15K, mid at 820, 1800 and 3900 Hz. Low freq. response is massive.

Studer is good but different sound--less character somehow.
Studer is a lot heavier---save your back!

Dont' be seduced by modern designs which don't deliver!

[hollywood_steve]

Plush,

If I could purchase a Neve 54 8x2 mixer for $2,500, I'd do it in a second. These things are not exactly plentiful, but when they do show up out here in LA, asking prices are closer to $8k to $10k, which is ridiculous. They might not actually change hands for that amount, but I doubt that any of them have gone for much under $6k. Point me towards a non-thrashed unit for $2,500 and the drinks are on me!

[Plush]

Dear HollywoodSteve,

I would be a shame to see a Neve 5442 table top mixer go for cheap. But I do see them on ebay here in the US. And when I search the listings in other countries, I see them going for cheap (Romania, ex Polish Radio, ex Radio Italiana, ex Vatican Radio, etc.)
They are cheap in the UK too. Try talking to Mark at Funky Junk in London. He should be able to find you a decent one.

Even if I could sell mine in Hell-A to a sound freak for $10,000, the price I paid, the unit would still read, "not for sale."

I'll keep my eye out for your Neve.

And, oh my root!; talk about a killer line mixer!
weighs about 40 lbs.

[ToneLux]

Don't forget to look at the Tonelux stuff. I have designed it for remote recording, either by ethernet control of the mic pres or a fly pack.

DON'T FORGET TO VOTE!

[Plush]

This Tonelux gear looks well done--especially so since there is a real sound freak as the mind behind! I'd like to know more.

[ToneLux]

Originally posted by Plush
This Tonelux gear looks well done--especially so since there is a real sound freak as the mind behind! I'd like to know more.

Is the mind behind the same as the "other brain"? I always thought it was smarter than the main brain...


It will be very good stuff, I am trying to bridge the gap between buying a real console and using a DAW mix bus.

We are still refining the details, but so far, it is killer and sounds warm as hell. The EQ is very nice and reminds me of a certain classic eq that we all love. Of course, it is sweepable and has the 1/3 octave switch so it is very useful.

Paul

[0VU]

Sonare:
Have you considered the Manley 16x2 line level mixer? Fits in a rack, but not cheap--$9k new from the factory. Don't know if deals can be had via dealers.

Thanks Sonare, yes I tried one a couple of years ago in a head to head on a string quartet session with a few other mixers.

It wasn't the lowest on the list but it wasn't the highest either and we canned it after about 5 minutes listening. It looks good, is really nicely put together and feels great in use (typical Manley design and build quality) but it was just too coloured and false sounding for my taste. I guess that the sound has to be deliberately designed in as it's not the kind of sound I could see anyone arriving at accidentally but it's a sound for someone else, not me. If it had been voiced more neutrally I'd have bought it like a shot as it had more or less everything I wanted but I couldn't get it to sound clean and accurate enough and I din't like the way in which it sounded innaccurate. I'm sure it's a beautiful product that a lot of people will love; it just missed the mark for me.

I think that what I'm now looking for is something either with a very subtley coloured sound of perhaps something really brutally neutral that'll just mix completely cleanly and let me put the colour in with mics/preamps/eq/whatever.

Has anyone tried the Millennia Mixing Suite? I can't seem to find one in the UK that I could go and try.

[0VU]

hollywood_steve:
asking prices are closer to $8k to $10k

Blimey Steve, if you can find people who'll pay $10K for a Neve 54, you can sell my two and I'll split the profit with you!

There was a beautiful 12:2 54 on eBay a little while ago that went for a bit under $7K and a couple of 8:2 recently went for around $4K. They come up quite often and as Plush suggests it's usually cheaper to get them somewhere other than eBay.

About 4-6 weeks ago there was a very cute little 8:2 Calrec MiniMixer on eBay UK that went quite cheaply. And there's a largeish Studer 962 on there now. (but it's quite large and only half mic/line and half stereo line inputs.)

[hollywood_steve]

In general, it seems that the fairly priced Calrec, Cadac and Neve desks are usually located somewhere in the UK. I've purchased mics and modules from Europe on several occasions, but shipping a console 7k miles is going to eat up a lot of the savings. And thats assuming that you are willing to buy something that complex sight unseen, and that you trust this unknown person to properly crate and ship the desk. So, while I agree that there are some good deals to be found on these little mixers, I was really hoping that the LA market was large enough that I wouldn't need to go elsewhere.

(I understand that high end consoles are routinely shipped around the world; but when someone buys a used 8078, the purchase price often includes first class tickets for a pair of techs to fly over, disassemble and pack the board and then fly with it to the installation site and set it up properly. When the budget is $5k or under, different rules apply.)

I agree with your overall recommendations, I'm just saying that prices in this area are inflated and I'm a little wary of buying a 20 or 30 year old console from halfway around the world based only on some small digital photos.