Broadcasting console - Vista 8 or mc2 90?

[Arey]

Hey everyone. This is my fist post here at gearsluts, so i hope i cought right part of forum for this question.
I work as a sound technician in a national television. Lately, there was some rumors about building a new control room for one of our studios, and we got some brochures of possible consoles to look over. There has been some talk about Studer's Vista 8 and Lawo's mc2 90 (sadly, these two were the best they could come up with), and i decided to check it with you guys aswell, about what you think is the best choice. The console will be mainly used for important big live shows with live bands aswell. So it must be very reliable and intuitive.
As far as i've checked the matter i think Vista 8 is a bit better, since it has some really great functions, but the bummer for me is, that it doesn't have knobs as old SSL consoles. See, i've grown accustomed to SSL's 8000GB and Aysis, and i like my EQ's and compressors to be only a turn of a button away. Five-button-strips are simply not for broadcasting, since it takes time to call up right functions for them knobbies. We also have an Euphonix Max Air, and it's most frustrating when trying to change a few guest's voices in a second or two.
What i'd like to know is, which console has supposedy a better overall quality. If you worked on any of those two, just tell your oppinion.
So, any fellow broadcasters around here?

[gw10nt]

If you can't talk them into Calrec, then it's Studer. The Vistonics system doesn't eliminate paging to find the functions but it cuts down on it considerably.

[huub]

Oh, man.. I have so much to say bout this I don't feel like typing it down..

In my opinion, there are only 3 options for broadcast: calrec, studer and lawo..
Our company has chosen mc66/2's and I loooove that machine.. The mc2/90 is much bigger and more expensive, but has exactly the same core as the mc22/66, it's just a bigger control surface. There is no need to buy a mc2/90 unless:
-You have a lot of multi operator programmes (2 mixers, one for national, one for international for example, or one for fx, the other for presentation)
-You want a big and impressive console
-You have a lot of money to spend ond don't care.

Lawo's are extremely reliable and insanely fexible; you can change the layout of the desk, change things to mono/stereo/surround, all while being live and without audio interruption.

Studers are also extremely reliable, and have the added bonus of the fantastic vistionics user interface, also Studers are completely surround ready NOW, whereas Lawo's surround implementaion is not ideal, they have promised to sort it out far before this year's olympics, but for now, it's not finished..workable, but not good..

The possiblity to change your desk layout live and on the fly is less fast on the studer..

We were fine with either studer or lawo at our company, the decision was financial in the end,
but we have never looked back, and I thouroughly enjoy working on a lawo..

The dynamics on the lawo are good, but I don't love em, I did love the dynamics on our Neve libra live's, but hey, those desks were unreliable pieces of crap, so i prefer the reliabilty of the lawo.

Anyway, I have to join my collegues for a beer in the hotel bar now, I'd be glad to answer any questions about the lawo..

(the studer i've only had about 3 or 4 hours of demo on, so my knowledge is limited)

Cheers,
huub lelieveld
cinevideogroup outside broadcast

[huub]

I think for outside broadcast, especially sports and other complicated stuff, I would recommend a Lawo without a doubt in the world,
for a fixed (studio) setup or straight music, I would listen to the sound of the dynamics and eq on both the lawo and studer and base the decision on that.
Calrec is another reliable option for broadcast, but calrecs do have a pretty fixed structure and don't even come close to the flexibility of the lawo.. Also, lawo's and studers talk to the main router protocols (probel and what have you), so getting a lawo or studer means you don't have to get a separate audiorouter and you get a basically endless router (you can route just about everything to everything).

As for the lack of physical knobs, I personally prefer working on a digital console to working on an analog one..
I eq just as much and just as fast on the lawo as on our analog studers,

also -get this-
The lawo had a 'sns' button, which let you hear your eq only on your monitor path, so you can sweep your eq, without it being in the program, it does this for all dsp, so also gate, expander, compressor, stereo widener/narrower, sidechain for your dynamics...

Huub

[Jim vanBergen]

My personal opinion is that the Studer Vista is phenomenal to work on for live broadcast. I was very comfortable with it immediately, and find the sonics to be top-notch. I would, however, request a Calrec demo as well.

[Roland]

I've had some limited experience with the Studer Vista 8 (though not in a broadcast environment) and sound quality is certainley not a problem. For quite a while Studer digitals have had the reputation of being one of the best sounding digital consoles out there. With the sort of money you will be spending, getting a decent demo on both shouldn't be any problem.


Regards

Roland

[huub]

And also, in my humble opinion, the euphonix mixers aren't really broadcastmixers,
they claim to be, but really aren't, so don't base your opinion of digital mixers in general on your experiences with euphonix..
The product managers of both Lawo and studer still work as live broadcast soundmixers, and if you talk to them they actually understand what you're talking about..

[lunar]

I imagine knob per function would leave only SSL as a real option...

[deardaddy]

We extensively use Stage Tec consoles (Aurus, Cantus) here at the Belgian national public television RTBF.
We are really happy with them and also with Stage Tec Nexus audio Network.
We have Stage Tec consoles and audio network in our fixed studios and in our OB vans, I can tell you that it is reliable and it has a great sound.
We do sports, live shows, concerts.

Best regards from Belgium


Pascal Zander

[Arey]

About Lawo's, we DO need a huge console, since our SSL Aysis in one control room sometimes is not enough (48 strips is apparently not a whole lot for our "genius" editors), and we have to use two layers. Money is a factor, but i think if there were some huge difference, we culd persuade engineers, to buy us something more expensive.
Some of our sound engineers went to Switcherland to Studer, and reported back with ear-to-ear smiles about Vista 8. People, incharge of buying equipment are trying to persuade us torwards Vista 5, but to hell with them anyways.
We recomended Vista 8, and when we get it (if we do), i will report back.
Thank you all, you've been very helpfull.

[huub]

Just for google's sake:

Our company now has both Lawo mc2 66 and Vista 8 consoles, my personal experience after a year or two is:

The Studer sounds just a tiny bit nicer (preamps and dynamics), and the user interface is reaaally nice, easier to get to grips with than the Lawo interface..
However; I do very much prefer the Lawo because of its extreme flexibility (switch from mono to stereo to surround and back on inputs, groups and masters realtime even while on-air for example), perfect integration with VSM routing software, Lawo having its own rental company and a BIG presence and support on big events (olympics, worldcup and eurocup football), Lawo's extreme adaption to market wishes (free software updates very often) and well, they do sound really nice... (But the studer compressors do sound a bit nicer)

[Selcams]

Does anybody knows where I can hire or buy asap a Studer Vista 8?? Thank u!

[muziekschuur]

Call Studer...

[brew]

Originally Posted by Arey

The console will be mainly used for important big live shows with live bands aswell. So it must be very reliable and intuitive.

What exactly is the application, you don't really specify. I see music and television. Is this dedicated for music or does it need to do all production audio (host, guests, bands)? What types of shows?

You mentioned SSL, why aren't you considering that? It sounds like this is music focused and I consider Studer and Lawo to be less capable music desks than SSL. The C200 would be good if this is just music, and the C100, at least in the States, is doing music and production on many shows, so it's proven as a production and a music console. For instance, the Met Opera is using a C100 for it's HD broadcast.

[studjo]

I just recorded a Jazz project on a Vista 8 - I have no clue why a C200 should be more capable of doing music than a Studer???

Selcams where are you located? I know of an Van with a Studer in there

[cheu78]

In the radio which I work for we have a bunch of Vista 8..
Despite the sound, which is fine (it's a digital console, and I'm an old analog fart..) but they're a lil bit buggy in the software IMO.. Like the fader controls (level peak meter that is constantly changing without change the level and small stuff like that).. Also Studer put Alps fader in these, now the radio is replacing them with penny&giles.. Is studer really saving pennnies on faders on a 250k desk? Really? (to be correct I've heard that they have p&g on the new Vista9)

I have the impression that you pay way too much for what you get with studer digital consoles.. Harman just walks on the studer name made when QUALITY was the priority, not margin. And when Studer was doing the 289 and the 900 series.. Those were expensive to make and to buy, but the quality in the parts was definitely there.

I'm not saying that is a bad console, but heck, for that kind of money one should expect a lil bit more attention to the details, both from software and hw IMHO.
I never worked on a Lawo though so can't comment..they look very nice though

I don't know what kind of work you need to do, but in the live world there is Digico which is very appealing to me..for several reasons..sound, recording features, modularity, price, etc.. They have also broadcast versions of their live consoles now (check out the SD7).


Just another 0.02$,

Cheu