Which mixing board for church - Mackie TT24, Peavey Sanctuary or Allen & Heath?

[jvt]

Hi all.

The church I play for is looking to purchase a mixing board soon. We need to decide whether to go analog or digital - and if analog, which board to buy. Our current considerations are:

- Mackie TT24
- Peavey Sanctuary Series S-32
- Mackie Onyx 32.4
- Allen & Heath GL2400-32

Our primary concerns are: ease of use in a live situation, learning curve, visual feedback, accessibility, sound quality (pre-amps, eqs, etc.), reliability, and to some extent extensibility. The board will need to be easy enough to operate for both an experienced engineer as well as someone who may be relatively new to live mixing (the more likely case).

I'm looking for the opinions of the community who have had experience with using either of these consoles live - preferably in a worship service situation, but not necessarily.

Of course other recommendations are greatly welcome! Just try to keep the price in the under $6000 range.

[Remoteness]

I'm surprised that you didn't include the Midas Venice 320.

[jvt]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I'm surprised that you didn't include the Midas Venice 320.

I'm not familiar with this board. Can you tell me something about it from your experience? How does it compare to the ones listed listed?

[Remoteness]

Here's pretty much every thread about boards consoles desks & mixers in this forum.

If you want to go outside this discussion group do a search with Venice as the key word.

Check it them out and let me know if you need any further information.

[Jim vanBergen]

I had a client request & purchase the TT24, and regret it horribly. He has returned the console to Mackie THREE times and had it completey replaced. It's not a desk I can suggest anyone use. In the 5k range, the Yamaha DM1000 is hard to beat. In the $15k range, the Yamaha M7CL is very hard to beat.

In the lower-cost analog range, I think the Midas Venice 320 is the cherry of these analog desks, followed by the Allen & Heath, then the Mackie - and this is comparing preamps, equalization, ease of use, routing, sound quality- regardless of the material. Religious material/worship/Praise is no different from the constant stream of what we talk about here all the time: We're all talking about good sound.

[bishopthomas]

As a former technical director for a large church, I would HIGHLY recommend going digital. Chances are you will be training people how to operate a mixer and in general run sound from square one. Why not train them on digital? Some of the old guys who have experience with analog consoles may never get it, so look to the younger generations who don't remember what the world was like without computers in every aspect of life.

The ability to save scenes is invaluable in a church setting where there are consistently different functions happening. My church had two services every Sunday morning, one a contemporary with full band and 8 vocalists. An hour later was a more traditional service that was mainly podium, lav mic, piano, and maybe some simple "special" music. Going from one service to the next was as easy as hitting the Recall button.

Also, keep in mind that when you purchase a digital console you will need no outboard gear. Factor that in to the price versus an analog console and outboard and you may be surprised at the savings. For your budget I would look at the Yamaha LS9-32. 32 microphone inputs, 16 outputs, 2 expansion slots, a small footprint...

[jvt]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Here's pretty much every thread about boards consoles desks & mixers in this forum.

If you want to go outside this discussion group do a search with Venice as the key word.

Check it them out and let me know if you need any further information.

I'd already done a search for comparisons of these specific mixers because those were the ones under consideration, but I couldn't find the kind of feedback I was after. I do appreciate the information on the Midas. I will do more research on that one.

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

I had a client request & purchase the TT24, and regret it horribly. He has returned the console to Mackie THREE times and had it completey replaced. It's not a desk I can suggest anyone use. In the 5k range, the Yamaha DM1000 is hard to beat.

That was a concern on the TT24, but I keep finding very mixed reviews - people have either had great experiences or awful experiences and the spread seems to be 60/40 (slightly in favor). The DM1000 was on my list at one time and I've heard it was a nice board - for studio use. For whatever reason, I was advised against it for live use.

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

As a former technical director for a large church, I would HIGHLY recommend going digital. Chances are you will be training people how to operate a mixer and in general run sound from square one. Why not train them on digital? [...]

The ability to save scenes is invaluable in a church setting where there are consistently different functions happening. My church had two services every Sunday morning, one a contemporary with full band and 8 vocalists. An hour later was a more traditional service [...]

Also, keep in mind that when you purchase a digital console you will need no outboard gear. Factor that in to the price versus an analog console and outboard and you may be surprised at the savings. For your budget I would look at the Yamaha LS9-32. 32 microphone inputs, 16 outputs, 2 expansion slots, a small footprint...

These are excellent points, bishopthomas. Our church also has a contemporary (combo band) and traditional service (choir, piano/organ) with the common types of music for each. So I agree, the recall features could be beneficial.

But that gets back to the TT24. I've read more than a handful of bad reviews on it (it's still on the list for "other" reasons) The Yamaha LS-9, seems like a good option, but its out of the allotted budget. Unfortunately, I have not been successful at identifying an alternative digital mixing board with the right features and price point. For an analog solution, it's interesting that no one has endorsed the Peavey Sanctuary Series as a viable option. Is anyone using it?

I do thank everyone for their input so far. I respect the opinions of the members here. Please know that I don't expect to get "the answer" from this thread, but I was hoping there would be general consensus towards one or two good candidates as well as insight into options that could turn out to be bad choices in the long term. I've got to step out for a bit, but hopefully others will have joined in when I return.

[tnjazz]

Tascam DM4800 maybe?

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

As a former technical director for a large church, I would HIGHLY recommend going digital. Chances are you will be training people how to operate a mixer and in general run sound from square one. Why not train them on digital? Some of the old guys who have experience with analog consoles may never get it, so look to the younger generations who don't remember what the world was like without computers in every aspect of life.

The ability to save scenes is invaluable in a church setting where there are consistently different functions happening. My church had two services every Sunday morning, one a contemporary with full band and 8 vocalists. An hour later was a more traditional service that was mainly podium, lav mic, piano, and maybe some simple "special" music. Going from one service to the next was as easy as hitting the Recall button.

Also, keep in mind that when you purchase a digital console you will need no outboard gear. Factor that in to the price versus an analog console and outboard and you may be surprised at the savings. For your budget I would look at the Yamaha LS9-32. 32 microphone inputs, 16 outputs, 2 expansion slots, a small footprint...

I have a different philosophy -- analog even if it means using crib sheets for recall. I think it's easier to teach audio in an analog environment and fewer things to confuse less-experienced operators.

+1 for Midas Venice.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

I have a different philosophy -- analog even if it means using crib sheets for recall. I think it's easier to teach audio in an analog environment and fewer things to confuse less-experienced operators.

+1 for Midas Venice.

I have only spoken from my own experience, having taught people on both analog and digital consoles. The "old guys" who had been around for 30 years refused to learn the digital console, but the new younger people (who were completely green to audio) were very quick to learn.

I would have to disagree with the Venice suggestions. I feel that it is too expensive for what it is. The quality of preamps and EQ don't make up for the limitations in outputs and routing. For the same money Soundcraft and A&H have consoles that are much more flexible and don't sound half bad at all. Midas makes a great sounding console, but I feel that until you get past the Verona line you might as well go with something else and have some change in your pocket. Or spend it on other areas that need improvement (microphones, etc).

[nickynicknick]

100 % get the Allen and Heath....a very good mid level console...easy to use...appreciated by pros...good pres...way better than Mackie or Peavy.....I've mixed in every conceivable scenario (the worst to the best consoles) and by far Mackie are the worst (IMO) and Allen and Heath is surprisingly good stuff esp for it's price...BTW Midas venice is a bit overated....A$H has better routing and eq (IMO) (and phase flip button) and sounds better for live situations....also digital is not the way to go for ease of use and multiple users. Good Luck.

Nick

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

As a former technical director for a large church, I would HIGHLY recommend going digital. Chances are you will be training people how to operate a mixer and in general run sound from square one. Why not train them on digital? Some of the old guys who have experience with analog consoles may never get it, so look to the younger generations who don't remember what the world was like without computers in every aspect of life.

The ability to save scenes is invaluable in a church setting where there are consistently different functions happening. My church had two services every Sunday morning, one a contemporary with full band and 8 vocalists. An hour later was a more traditional service that was mainly podium, lav mic, piano, and maybe some simple "special" music. Going from one service to the next was as easy as hitting the Recall button.

Also, keep in mind that when you purchase a digital console you will need no outboard gear. Factor that in to the price versus an analog console and outboard and you may be surprised at the savings. For your budget I would look at the Yamaha LS9-32. 32 microphone inputs, 16 outputs, 2 expansion slots, a small footprint...

hmm...the bishop makes a good point...given your applications having scenes programmed fo different scenarios seems ideal...however...out o fthe consoles listed, I'm still sticking to th A&H by far...you might consider upping the budget and go for the lower end Yamaha Digital console

[studio1117]

Venice is a great choice. I would caution the use of a digital console unless you have an educated engineer on hand. While the advantages are many for a digital board, if you can't find somebody to operate it..they are useless. I know of several churches that were sold digital consoles and have paid local guys tons of money to help them out with using them only to finally replace them with analog boards.

[johndykstra]

The good thing about a digital console in a church, is that once it's PROPERLY set-up, there should be no reason to adjust much, as the band is not tearing down after performances; eq's and comps can be set and forgotten, and someone with an ear can just ride faders. The key is in that inital set-up. Sub menus and 2 function buttons can be a bit much for even the most seasoned engineers. Having said that, I've had the opportunity to mix on a TT24, a Midas Venice, A&H GL2400, and I've seen a Sanctuary mixer at a NAMM show. If I were to go analog from your list I would hands down go with the GL2400. It's actually the mixer I'm pushing for in the club that I work at. Very nice sounding board for the cash. The benifits of the Sanctuary series are the color coding, some feedback filters I think?, and non-industry function descriptions for the newbies. (It's been a couple of years since I saw one) You're still looking at Peavey quality, which mentioned with the other analog contenders just isn't going to cut it. I actually quite enjoyed mixing on the TT24. My only other digital board experience for a live mix was a Tascam, and the work flow was just not there on the Tascam. TT24 had a one touch feature for everthing you need to get to quickly: faders obviously, aux sends, graphic eq's... I'd say a seasoned engineer after a few sessions should be able to flow around the routing of the TT24 pretty quickly. As far as quality issues, I couldn't really say. I got the board I was using directly from Mackie...it was one of their "beta" versions they wanted me to try out for a while, so I'm sure I got a solid one. I hope my lack of solid answers helps you, even a little. Just wanted to give feedback as to my experience with your options.

Goodluck!

[jvt]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

...I hope my lack of solid answers helps you, even a little. Just wanted to give feedback as to my experience with your options.

Goodluck!

Thanks, dykstraster. Your feedback is helpful indeed. And so is everyone else's!

So far I'm getting the sense that the top contenders for analog mixers in this price range are the Allen & Heath GL2400 or Venice 320 (with a good recommendation from bishopthomas for one of the Soundcraft offerings). As for digital, although a bit out of our target range, the choice seems to be the Yamaha LS9. dykstraster has certainly provided positive feedback on the TT24, but the remaining comments in this thread have been either negative or non-existent so there are still some concerns there.

Initially, I could see the value of snapshot capability. Yet after going through some use cases in my head, I realized that between the two services, with an adequate number of channels, the various musical groups would not likely be using the same sets of inputs and thus minimal or no changes should be needed other than perhaps channel muting. So in our situation, the real benefit of the digital board might be the availability of independent channel compressors/gates (although there are still outboard ways to handle that).

I guess the one open issue is, if we decide to go digital, the TT24 seems to be the only choice in the given price range that has also been recommended for live use. So the question is...if we were to go that route, how bad would it be? Would the TT24 be a disaster? Anyone else have any experience with this board that could offer more insight (good or bad)? In the meantime, I'll see if there can't be special considerations for the added cost of the Yamaha LS9 if we choose digital.

Again, I appreciate the time that everyone has taken to provide input. Whether you realize it or not, your responses have provided a great deal of experienced insight that I can take back to our committee to make a more informed buying decision. For that, I really can't thank you all enough. thumbsup

[studio1117]

We tried the TT24 when it very first came out, basically a demo model. We could never even get the thing to work. The Yamaha's are basically bulletproof, so if you go digital, go yamaha.

[studjo]

I never used a TT24 in a real live situation but I played around with it for quite some time - I prefer it over any Yamaha desk for its easiness of use. No cluttered menus - more or less everything there on one tip of a finger. For me it's the best thought out "small money" console on the market. I hope I can check it out live soon.

Jo

[PDC]

Originally Posted by tnjazz

Tascam DM4800 maybe?

I too was a TD and A1 for two mega churches with pro broadcasting departments, and 16k in attendance on the weekends. We had Midas throughout at one campus, and Crest V12s + Yamaha DM1000s as submixers at the other.

I would not use any Tascam or Mackie digital product. For one, they both have a crappy track record of support and discontinuing product that is sold as "here forever and updatable" (D8B). I had a Mackie as a choir mix submixer (16 Schoeps). I went through hell keeping that turd going. I replaced it with a 1604VLZ Pro.

Yamaha by far is the king of intro mixers for church with the 7. You can get the largest model for $9k. You can record to a thumb drive even. It is simple and uncluttered.

A&H have QC issues. I used to sell those. I got tired of dead power supplies, units DOA, etc. They have a great guy providing over-the-phone service (George I think), but the goal is not to have to use it. I would not install a A&H console at any price.

The low end Midas sound good, but they cannot compete really. They don't have the channel count, the flexibility, the quality pots and faders, etc. I would use them (and did) as sub mixers (which was their original intended purpose for their large consoles).

I believe in spending the money responsibly. People in need could be taken care of with it. So, I weigh out what I need so that I will not have to buy another console for 3-5 years, which is about the lifespan of a cheap analog console. That pushes me to digital most times.

[MichaelPatrick]

I don't like the sound of the TT24. I heard one on demo in a music coffeehouse that used A&H for most shows. By comparison the sound was thin and hard to my ear.

[studjo]

what do you expect it's a digital board - I can't stand the lower end Yamaha's too (sonically I'd never go for a digital board)

Jo

[MrT]

Jesus would have used a Midas... I'm sure of it!

Actually he probably would have told you that if you got 6g's laying around maybe you should use it on something better than a mixer. Like actually helping people in need... But I guess good sound is more important for a church right?

[PDC]

Originally Posted by MrT

Jesus would have used a Midas... I'm sure of it!

Actually he probably would have told you that if you got 6g's laying around maybe you should use it on something better than a mixer. Like actually helping people in need... But I guess good sound is more important for a church right?

I don't get this logic. Are you implying that only non religious/Christian people should invest in good sounding, reliable tools to complete a task? Should we skimp on quality busses for the children too? What about correctly constructed facilities that meet code.

Granted, some "christians" teach doctrines that God wants everyone rich and famous. This is not consistant with the bible, but it does make for a good show on Sunday.

Until you have worked in a church, you may not appreciate the needs that we have. We do things that broadway shows do, on much less, with much less. We have to provide broadcast quality programming on shoe string budgets. We have to keep up with modern education techniques. Gone are the days when we sit in 16th century buildings, singing 18th century songs, listening to a speaker we cannot understand (on multiple levels).

I have worked for the churches that do the show. I am not there now. I can't do it. Many of these people do have penis envy. They have lusts for more gear, more stations, more money. That makes me ill and I will not do that any longer. I do consulting now to help the smaller churches (95% of the rest) that have 200+/- members. These people can't afford to be buying crap and replacing it every three years. It is much wiser to pay me now instead of later, and later, and later.

[MrT]

Sorry to just interject opinion... didn't mean to derail anything. I just feel that any organization that claims to follow Jesus but has tens of thousands of dollars worth of A/V equipment might have missed something about what he said.

Rant Over. Apologies again. Continue...

[jvt]

Guys, before things get too out of hand, please know that I'd like to be able to refer this thread to other interested parties from church without having to first apologize for the content. This information really is being used to help us make a purchasing decision! We all know how easily a discussion can degrade, making it more difficult to lift the gems of knowledge that lie within and lowering the apparent integrity of the feedback. So please remember to keep your posts respectful and flame-bait free!


Don't make me have to use another animated smiley icon - 'cause I will if it comes down to that!!

[bishopthomas]

This isn't a new argument from the "Christian bashers." We're all entitled to our own opinions, but realize that it's not necessarily "6g's laying around" to indulge someone in the congregation that wants a new toy. Equipment is needed in all aspects of a house of worship. Would you have the same opinion of the commercial kitchen appliances needed to prepare food for the homeless? The audio systems are there as tools to accomplish the goals of the organization. You may not agree with those goals, but wouldn't you agree that the proper tools are deserved by that organization? Maybe you're a Mac guy. Would you fault Microsoft for installing an audio/video system in a conference room for pitching ideas to a potential customer?

The end. Delete if necessary.

[Remoteness]

We do pretty good around here even though I didn't set any guidelines to date.

With that said, for the most part this forum has always been about respecting our members and the guests that read our words.

Please keep that in mind when addressing our various issues on this board.

You you want to moan take it to the "Moan Zone" forum.

Thank you very much in advance!

[johndykstra]

Perhaps it's time for some more information about the rest of your rig. Not to get off track here, but if you're in this specific budget and haven't looked into outboard gear alotment, then the TT24 is really the only choice. Also, what are we looking at for mains and amps? Sound quality differences in mixers may not show it's face if we plan on going with QSC and Sonic. Just a thought to keep the ball moving in a positive direction.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by studjo

what do you expect it's a digital board - I can't stand the lower end Yamaha's too (sonically I'd never go for a digital board)

Jo

We're in agreement.
It probably takes a higher-end digital board to get sonics that compare favorably to mid-level analog boards.

[carl111sound]

Has anyone used the TASCAM DM-4800 as a cheap digi-live mixer? It seems to have all of the same functionality.

[ExtremeSound]

jvt..have you made a purchase yet? I may have used the peavy sanctuary I say may because we were visiting another church it was a peavy, a smaller board maybe 16 channels might be a totally different model. Either way I didn't like it, we have a Yamaha MG24fx it works good i think they have a 32 ch model.