LD condensers and orchestra, choir recording

[Onan]

I've read the posts here on recording choirs/orchestras, and I'm wondering if folks use any of the familiar LD pressure-gradient condensers for that stuff. I'm especially interested to know if anyone has had positive experience with a stereo pair of U99's on a choir. But I'd appreciate any comments about LD condensers (M149, E49, E47, U87?) on choir/orchestra in general. If all pressure-gradient condensers have proximity effect, does low-end response generally differ between LD and SD condensers at distances of 10 feet or more?

My goal is to make a purchase decision. I'm recording a choir later this year. I have pairs of U87, KM184, and 414B/ULS. (My experiments suggest that the KM184's work OK for a choir.) I almost never record a choir, so I don't want to spend money on single-purpose choir mics. But I'd like to add a pair of U99's (for my usual rock recordings), and wonder if you choir recordists like them on a choir. Better/worse than KM184?

To put it another way, I like my U87 on rock vocal, but would like to have the U99 flavor, too. Positive experiences with the U99 on a choir might convince me to make the purchase.

Thanks.
Lee Anderson

[fifthcircle]

I've used lots of large diaphragm mics on orchestral or choral work. For choirs, most of my favorite mics happen to be small dia. (schoeps 221B or CMC6/MK21) but I think that is just coincidence. My favorite mic in my rig is my AKG 426 stereo mic which is a LD, multi-pattern mic. I've also used SM69 stereo mics, UM 57 tube mics, 414's and other LD mics.

What I like about them is the fact that you get a bit of color off-axis. Proximity effect isn't usually an issue (because you aren't close to them) but the off-axis color can provide a bit more excitement in your recording.

For choirs, omnis are your friend. You can get closer with them, but the ambience from them helps provide a unified sound. Try positioning the microphones in a spaced array at a height that is slightly higher than the top row but aiming down into the ensemble. Works like a dream.

--Ben

[sonare]

I tend to approach things from the same musical vantage point as Ben, but i can offer some different suggestions.

First, having owned KM184s (and still own KM140s) they would be my absolute LAST choice, unless you are going for "vocals" as opposed to "choral".

My LD choral experience is limited to TLM193s, which worked well considering they are cardi and do not have the low-end "weight" of omnis. They do not suffer the upper midrange peakiness of the SD Neumanns, inspite of using the same circuitry. Tony Faulkner (Brit classical engineer extrordinaire) likes to use a pair of M50s for choral. Well, who wouldn't?

My all-time first choice for choral is the Royer SF12 stereo ribbon mic. You get the resonance of the ensemble but without the "crunchiness" of a condenser.

If you buy this mic you will find it to be a versatile addition to your toolbox, and certainly NOT limited to choral or solo voice.

My $.02.

Rich

[fifthcircle]

Originally posted by sonare

My all-time first choice for choral is the Royer SF12 stereo ribbon mic. You get the resonance of the ensemble but without the "crunchiness" of a condenser.

Since we're talkin' ribbons... The SF12 is pretty amazing. The SF24 is even better. There is a slightly bigger sound with a slightly more extended top end.

I just used on as the main pair on an orchestral recording and it sounded quite fantastic indeed. In any case, Royer is doing something seriously right with stereo ribbon mics.

--Ben

[Onan]

Thanks Ben and Rich for the feedback. I'll dig through gearslutz posts to learn more about the SF-12, which might be within budget. If it's an excellent all-'rounder, I'm interested. Or maybe a pair of SF-1, so I could fiddle with different stereo configurations, besides XY and MS.

If you're using a pair of mono mics, what polar-pattern and stereo-configuration do you like? How far do you space the pair? My experiments with XY sounded kinda dull to me, and I find myself pushing the mics a foot or two apart. But I haven't recorded a choir before; will the extra stereo space sound weird to folks who listen to that type of recording?

Also, if you use mics that are kinda flat, what eq boost/cut do you do in mixdown/mastering, if any? Harder than choosing gear is learning good judgment, so I appreciate any tips on what to listen for in good choir recordings (so I can try to emulate them).


Lee

[natpub]

M150 is fair for a decca thing, which would be an ideal pattern setup:

http://mixonline.com/products/review...nn_decca_tree/

But, I have heard that the real M50's (if you are rich, which I am not) are just stunning for such applications, and far far better than the newer 150's.

Also, you might ask this in the "Remote Possibilities" forum here, as I notice they are very up on this kind of thing and probably know all kinds of good alternatives.


Best,

KT

[sonare]

Originally posted by Onan

If you're using a pair of mono mics, what polar-pattern and stereo-configuration do you like? How far do you space the pair? My experiments with XY sounded kinda dull to me, and I find myself pushing the mics a foot or two apart.

Also, if you use mics that are kinda flat, what eq boost/cut do you do in mixdown/mastering, if any? Harder than choosing gear is learning good judgment, so I appreciate any tips on what to listen for in good choir recordings (so I can try to emulate them).


Lee

Except for chamber music (where imaging is very important) I will always prefer a pair of good omnis, about 19 inches apart. Decent imaging, smooth sound, a real sense of space. And you will not get true pressure transducer omnis in a multipattern, unless it is a Schoeps. I could be wrong with M-49 and M-149, however.

I do not find X-Y useful at all-- very mono sounding, even when at 100 degrees. ORTF or NOS is much better.

Flat mics are hard to find, so don't mess up the sound by using EQ unless really needed. A first-order LF filter starting at 35 hZ takes care of the inevitable room rumble you get with good omnis.

As for good choral recordings to emulate, alsmot anything from Priory is good. The St John's Cambridge choir on Naxos is also worth getting, and are very easy on the wallet.

Rich

[fifthcircle]

Originally posted by Onan
Thanks Ben and Rich for the feedback. I'll dig through gearslutz posts to learn more about the SF-12, which might be within budget. If it's an excellent all-'rounder, I'm interested. Or maybe a pair of SF-1, so I could fiddle with different stereo configurations, besides XY and MS.

If you're using a pair of mono mics, what polar-pattern and stereo-configuration do you like? How far do you space the pair? My experiments with XY sounded kinda dull to me, and I find myself pushing the mics a foot or two apart. But I haven't recorded a choir before; will the extra stereo space sound weird to folks who listen to that type of recording?

Also, if you use mics that are kinda flat, what eq boost/cut do you do in mixdown/mastering, if any? Harder than choosing gear is learning good judgment, so I appreciate any tips on what to listen for in good choir recordings (so I can try to emulate them).


Lee

So many good questions. The thing is it really depends on the room and the ensemble in question.

If I'm recording a choir, I'll do up to about 35 singers with 2 omni mics spaced to divide the ensemble in thirds. If the ensemble is larger, I'll use 3, or perhaps even 4 mics. Depends on the width. Now, if the choir is singing with orchestra, that is a completely different thing. Then 2-3 mics max on the choir in most cases.

For choral recordings, I'm not a fan of mid-side. The reason being that the center mic is aiming right into the ensemble and you get a hot spot in the image where voices can stick out. Every choir director I've recorded for insists on a completely unified choral sound. They all have their likes and dislikes, but unity with a lack of voices sticking out is always a constant. When I have instruments playing with a choir (ie piano), I'll often put my AKG 426 out in front of the group in blumlein and a pair of omnis in a bit closer, but high in position.

Also, my feeling about acoustic music recording are if you are in the session and you're reaching for the EQ, something is wrong with your mic position. Try to get the perfect sound through the use of your microphones and preamps. Only when things are done, you may listen and decides that it needs a little bit of help. Sometimes, I'll add a touch up top for "air" in the sound, sometimes, I pull a bit out of the low mids if there is a "woofyness" to the sound. If the room has a rumble in it, I'll pull out some of the lows... It all really depends.

Probably one of my favorite choral recording engineers is Fred Vogler. He's an engineer here in LA that is at the top of the heap... Get any of his recordings that he did of the Los Angeles Master Chorale. I assisted on the Argento Te Deum and it was a real eye-opening experience to see how he got his sound. Since M50's were brought up, he used a decca tree of M50's on the orchestra for that recording and I believe he did on the Lauridsen recording as well...

I'm not familliar with Tony Faulkner's choral work, but if it is half as good as his other stuff, I'm sure it would be pretty stunning.

--Ben

[natpub]

BTW, Ben, I loved this thread of yours:

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...threadid=17725

musta been a blast!


--KT

[fifthcircle]

Originally posted by natpub
BTW, Ben, I loved this thread of yours:

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...threadid=17725

musta been a blast!


--KT

Thanks.... Yeah it was a total blast. With work like this, makes you wonder what a vacation should be... (oh yeah, it was the day after the gig when we went north to Cairns to hang at a tropical resort hotel, go through the Rainforest and go snorkling/diving at the Great Barrier Reef... )

---Ben

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by sonare

I tend to approach things from the same musical vantage point as Ben, but i can offer some different suggestions.

First, having owned KM184s (and still own KM140s) they would be my absolute LAST choice, unless you are going for "vocals" as opposed to "choral".

My LD choral experience is limited to TLM193s, which worked well considering they are cardi and do not have the low-end "weight" of omnis. They do not suffer the upper midrange peakiness of the SD Neumanns, inspite of using the same circuitry. Tony Faulkner (Brit classical engineer extrordinaire) likes to use a pair of M50s for choral. Well, who wouldn't?

My all-time first choice for choral is the Royer SF12 stereo ribbon mic. You get the resonance of the ensemble but without the "crunchiness" of a condenser.

If you buy this mic you will find it to be a versatile addition to your toolbox, and certainly NOT limited to choral or solo voice.

My $.02.

Rich

Sonare--you f-in nailed it! I was asked to record a choral group this past weekend, and while my query in remote possibilities got no response (and a measly 30 reads), I took your advice and it proved to be [i]perfect[\i]. I put an SF-12 on a mic stand with a Røde NT-4 adjacent to it, and the difference was amazing. SF-12 gave a beautiful choral blend (with ambience coming in from the backside of the figure 8s) while the NT-4 sounded like a boy band and a girl band competing for who's got the best voice.

Thanks for the great advice. I'm going to look at buying, not only renting, an SF-12 or an SF-24. Thanks!

[MBishopSFX]

I use (4) Sennheiser MKH800s in omni across a chorus plus (4) across the front of the orchestra. That's my favorite combo for most situations. I work mostly with fairly large ensembles, but the setup is scalable downward of course.

I also love (4) SF-1s on the chorus. Equally great, but different, would be the AES R84. Depends on the color one wants.

The SF12/SF24 or AEA R88 is best suited for soloist or quartet vocals downstage. Too much of a hot spot on chorus though, causing individual voices to stick out.

I can point to several CD or SACD releases with various combinations if anyone wants to know.

[Brad Lunde]

Originally Posted by Onan

I've read the posts here on recording choirs/orchestras, and I'm wondering if folks use any of the familiar LD pressure-gradient condensers for that stuff. I'm especially interested to know if anyone has had positive experience with a stereo pair of U99's on a choir. But I'd appreciate any comments about LD condensers (M149, E49, E47, U87?) on choir/orchestra in general. If all pressure-gradient condensers have proximity effect, does low-end response generally differ between LD and SD condensers at distances of 10 feet or more? <SNIP>
Thanks.
Lee Anderson

Cool question. We have a LOT of interaction with people who do this very thing. Good news is there are not as many opinions about LD mics "at distance" as their are about LD mics for vocals.

I'd say large source recording is divided into two camps really, and a third emerging. LD mics camp: love them at distance because of the sense of "intimacy" and bass response they get with that beautiful beautiful tone. SD mics camp: love the tremendous "accuracy" of the mics. The third camp emerging is the 'imaging camp', which is still in early experimentation mode.

LD Vintage: C12 in omni (matched pair hard to find), C24, E LAM251 in omni(matched pair hard to find); Neumann M50 not LD).

LD New: Brauner VM1 Klaus Heyne Edition (matched pair), Brauner VM1A [matched pair], Soundelux ELUX 251 [matched pair], Brauner VMS1 stereo [looks like a modern C24] Valvet, VMA, Neumann M149. A U99 would do well too. The prototype oval capsule supermic David Bock's been privately showing I expect will be a winner here too.

In imaging, SoundField and advanced blumlien ideas are becoming very interesting now with the implementation of digital filters. The newer Schoeps sphere and outriggers, Neumann heads, etc, all good, image nice. There are "spaced at varying distances" stereo arrangements that work and good ole X/Y. Real blumlien (M/S) arrangments w/figure of 8's (Ribbons usually) are alive and in use and can sound amazing. The newer Royer and AEA stereo mics, set up w/stacked ribbons, very cool. So lots to look at in imaging.

Brad

[sonare]

I think we have several several "sub-threads" emerging here. Imaging vs tone.

I probably would not even think of ribbons on the chorus in a orch/chorus recording. The idea is to increase presence and intelligibility (and reject as much orch as possible) rather than go for a specific "tone"-- not enough gain in the chorus mics to do that unless the chorus is so underpowered that the entire interprise is questionable. Plus that except in a few special circumstances the orchestra sound is king.

My comment about the Royer was not clear-- I would reach for it ONLY when the choir is the dominant ensemble. And I have used it on soloists with good results.

For mics on chorus I agree with Michael Bishop's choice-- good directionality with minimum "crunch." (Michael-- do you find the Sennheiser to have less of that than an MK21 cap?)

As for imaging-- to me that is a distant second in importance on a choir-- in fact it can be problem with certain individual voices. For me, "tone" is the primary consideration-- choral resonance. I recently A-B'd a Milliennia and a Precision 8 with SF12 on a choir in a fabulous room, and chose the Precision 8 because it had less precise imaging and a touch slower transient response (we're picking nits here). More euphonious tone as compared to uncompromised reality.

Rich