MKH8040 vs KM184

[RickZ]

I've been using KM184's on choral music for a couple of years, and they sound fine. But of late I've been reading raves about MKH8040's in various fora. By any chance does anyone have experience with both of these mics ? I'm trying to put together as small a rig as possible for a choral group's singing tour in Europe, using MR-1000 and SDC mic pair.

TIA for any guidance . .

Rick Z

[John Willett]

Personally I would use the MKH 8040.

They have less distortion and a better bottom end than the 184 - with the remote cable they are less conspicuous.

I know both.

I have the KM-D version of the Neumann omnis, but am getting the 8040 stereo set rather that the cardioid 184 heads for the Neumann.

Both good, but my faves are the MKH.

[hughesmr]

No personal experience with the 8040 here .... but if the MKH40 is any indication, the two are in completely different leagues. Sennheiser wins hands down. (Just ask Rich at Sonare Recordings about his 'key jangle' test...)

[JEGG]

As has already been said, these mics are very different by design and effect. They are so different, in fact, that you might prefer the Neumanns. And many people think the MKH series sounds filtered, etc.

I do like the MKH series a great deal (I have the "older" series), they are extraordinarily fatigue free microphones, IMO.

I haven't yet tried the new MKH8000 series. On paper, the polar plot for the new 8040 cardioid looks quite different than the MKH40. I've only heard very brief clips of the new 8040, and I liked what I heard. They seem noticeably "faster."

I wanted to buy more of the old series-the MKH40's in particular, but a couple of months ago Sennheiser raised their prices on those by about 30-35%. Just like Schoeps!

I'm looking forward to hearing more from the 8040.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

No personal experience with the 8040 here .... but if the MKH40 is any indication, the two are in completely different leagues. Sennheiser wins hands down. (Just ask Rich at Sonare Recordings about his 'key jangle' test...)

I don't think that the MKH40 is any indication. The key test would be interesting. The polar plot of the 8040 is nothing like that of the MKH40. In fact, it's a bit alarming.

I'm hoping the new mic is nice. Proof will be in using it.

[JEGG]

Since a couple of posts have referenced the polar response of the 8040, I want to offer one more point for discussion.

Already mentioned is that the polar plot for the 8040 is very different than that of the MKH40. The rear portion of the plot appears more like what would be seen as the rear of a LD cardioid, or one from a SD cardioid that is mounted at right angles to the mic body.

For many applications, smaller is better for mics and mic housing-there is less acoustical interference.

With the 8000 series, though, the "modularity" of the series works a bit differently than other modular and/or reduced size mics (Schoeps, DPA).

With the 8040, not only does the mic xlr "module", the cable xlr shell, and the cable itself enter more into play, but also the shock mounts I've seen will become more of an acoustic variable with the 8040 series than they were with the earlier series. Relative to the microphone, they are proportionately larger, and are proportionately closer to the diaphragm than with the old series. Consider also that the directionals have vents which will be in close proximity to surrounding objects.

I'm not suggesting a negative outcome at all, just that the change in geometry will bring new things into play. And the proof is in the listening. So far, the majority of reports by users have been enthusiastically positive.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by JEGG

I don't think that the MKH40 is any indication. The key test would be interesting. The polar plot of the 8040 is nothing like that of the MKH40. In fact, it's a bit alarming.

I'm hoping the new mic is nice. Proof will be in using it.

I see what you mean by the polar plot - but don't forget that the 32kHz plot of the 8040 pulls down the impression, as the MKH 40 does not go up this far.

I have owned MKH 40s for over 20 years and am well familiar with them - I am also just about to get the 8040s.

I have used the 8040 with some college students on loan and they certainly *are* very nice. The bottom end of the 8040 goes lower than the 40 as well as the extended top end.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by JEGG

With the 8000 series, though, the "modularity" of the series works a bit differently than other modular and/or reduced size mics (Schoeps, DPA).

With the 8040, not only does the mic xlr "module", the cable xlr shell, and the cable itself enter more into play, but also the shock mounts I've seen will become more of an acoustic variable with the 8040 series than they were with the earlier series. Relative to the microphone, they are proportionately larger, and are proportionately closer to the diaphragm than with the old series. Consider also that the directionals have vents which will be in close proximity to surrounding objects.

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at here?

The only difference that the 8000 modularity is different from the others is in the fact that the whole of the microphone is in the head - there are no electronics in the XLR module.

But the size thing about the 8000 will apply equally to the other small modular series from other manufacturers.

Shockmount wise - I will be using the new Rycote InVision series for all my mics from now on.

Polar pattern - all mics are a combination of compromises - with the 8000, maybe sacrificing the purity of the polar pattern made for a better sounding mic? Certainly a large amount of the development work with the MKH 8000 series was done in the real world with real musical instruments and was not only tested in the anechoic chamber.

[fifthcircle]

No comparison between the 8040 and a 184. The Neumann sounds etched and bright and the Sennheiser is big and warm and beautiful with a smooth airy top end.

The KM140 is an improvement on the 184, but the Sennheiser skunks both. I owned 184's and sold them for 140's. I almost use the Sennheiser exclusively for ORTF work now because of how much I like it.

--Ben

[fifthcircle]

I'll also add that the 8040 has resemblance but not much else to the MKH40. Definitely the same manufacturer, but they are *very* different microphones.

The 8040 has better reach, the MKH40 has a bloated low-mid section. The 8040 may get a bit tight at the upper mids, but it is easily correctable with a touch of EQ (1.5 dB at 5kHz or so I find helps a lot depending on source)

--Ben

[knightrupert]

Ben, have you tried the 8020?

[matthewd]

Hi all

I will pitch in here as I have the 8020s on trial here in the UK. We compared them with DPA 4006 and Earthworks QTC 40s on a recording in St Johns College Chapel Cambridge and they came up very nicely. There are wonderfully discrete which is useful for live stuff (this was a webcast) and they are very clean and true like most other MKHs. They are also well priced and have lots of useful looking accessories - particularly the tube stands, which we will probably order in due coarse. The one noticeable thing is how lively they are level wise - substantially louder than the DPAs which means nothing other than be careful with the pre amp settings

Matthew Dilley
:: complete take ::

[JEGG]

Since others have opined after my first post, I'll say too that I'd take the MKH over the 184 any day. Actually, I don't much like the 184 at all. Such a surprise.

I'm certain the 8040 was not just tested in an anechoic chamber-otherwise it would not be be garnering the praise that it has. In fact, it (and to an extent the 8020) seems to be gathering more converts than the immediate past series did.

It's inevitable that I'll end up with a pair, I'm just, well, resisting..........

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by JEGG

Since others have opined after my first post, I'll say too that I'd take the MKH over the 184 any day. Actually, I don't much like the 184 at all. Such a surprise.

Ditto here. Had a pr of 184s for a couple of years when I was starting out. After hearing the likes of Gefell and Schoeps, I just couldn't stand them anymore. Sold 'em and got a pr of M300, which are much cleaner sounding, but still a *touch* bright. After that purchase, I had a chance to play with a pr of MKH40s one weekend and really liked them.

The one thing that was always a bit strange about the earlier MKH condensers was that low-midrange "honkiness" that Ben alluded to. It is REALLY evident on some Telarc recordings from the 1990s. To me, it wasn't really a "bad" quality, just a bit of an unusual one that (I guess) gave the Senns a "signature" sound. I for one, though, am happy to hear that the new 8000 series has "cured" that little oddity! The new MKH line is certainly piquing my interest...

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by knightrupert

Ben, have you tried the 8020?

Haven't... Someday perhaps.

--Ben

[d_fu]

Saw the 80x0 mics in Frankfurt yesterday, and they are even smaller than I thought. Beginning to wonder what I could sell to buy some...

[fifthcircle]

yup... Almost so small that it becomes a problem. Finding shockmount, etc.. becomes an issue with these mics (if you don't want to pay Sennheiser prices for thier mounts).

BTW, they are 17mm which means they don't fit in a lot of modern mounts (which are made for 18 and 19 mm mics).

--Ben

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

yup... Almost so small that it becomes a problem. Finding shockmount, etc.. becomes an issue with these mics (if you don't want to pay Sennheiser prices for thier mounts).

Shockmounts are no problem at all - the new Rycote InVision Series are perfect for the MKH 8000 series. They are only £30 in the UK ($69 US I think) and better and much cheaper than the Sennheiser mount.

Use the INV-2 for the remote mic. or the INV-3 for the complete mic.

This is what I will be getting for mine. I think these are the best shockmounts on the market at any price - I have talked to the designer, understand the physics and have seen some of the measurements - no contest.

Originally Posted by fifth circle

BTW, they are 17mm which means they don't fit in a lot of modern mounts (which are made for 18 and 19 mm mics).

Sorry - WRONG - the MKH 8000 series are 19mm in diameter - the 17mm figure must have been referring to the diaphragm diameter (though I thought the diaphragm was 16mm like the MKH 20/30/40 series.

[hughesmr]

VERY slick mounts! Thanks for the valuable info. Now I'm thinking of selling my QTC1s!

[fifthcircle]

Must have seen some wrong figures on line when I purchased them... The issue is that mounts like the Shure A53 that work great for Neumann and Schoeps are too large for the MKH8000 series.

I haven't seen the rycote, but it isn't that much cheaper than the Sennheiser mounts. I've been using the Avantone mounts with great results. Cost only $16/ea too and they work well for my DPA 4006's which are also hard to find mounts for...

--Ben

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I haven't seen the rycote, but it isn't that much cheaper than the Sennheiser mounts.

In the UK, the Rycote InVision mounts are exactly half the price of the Sennheiser MZS 8000.

But, technically, the Rycotes are so good I would use them at any price.

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I've been using the Avantone mounts with great results. Cost only $16/ea too and they work well for my DPA 4006's which are also hard to find mounts for...

My understanding is that DPA (at least the UK importers) also like the Rycote mounts. They were sent pre-production samples to try and sent them over to Mike Skeet.

[Just Dan]

Everyone is talking about the polar plots and freq response charts. But I can't find them anywhere. The Sennheiser site only had a text list of features.

Are they super secret and only available to testers and buyers of the mics?

Daniel

[fifthcircle]

Looking for the Rycote mounts... Who sells them? Have they even been released?

The Sennheiser mount is about $80-$90 US.

--Ben

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Just Dan

Everyone is talking about the polar plots and freq response charts. But I can't find them anywhere. The Sennheiser site only had a text list of features.

The plots are on the Sennheiser website - go to the page and then (under the picture) click on "Technical Data" (it's just under the "General Description" one, which is the default page).

The 8040 is HERE.

Further down you can see the tag to download the Owners Manual if you want.

The pdf of the brochure (including polar-patterns and frequency response curves) is HERE (be patient it's a 1.27MB download).

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Looking for the Rycote mounts... Who sells them? Have they even been released?

The Rycote InVision 1, 2 and 3 mounts are available now.

The InVision 4 to 8 will come out in May.

The US agent for Rycote is:

• Redding Audio, Inc
• 97 South Main Street, Unit 10
• Newtown CT 06470
• United States of America
• +1 203 270 1808
• +1 203 270 2934
• sales@reddingaudio.com
• Redding Audio

[Just Dan]

Originally Posted by John Willett

The plots are on the Sennheiser website - go to the page and then (under the picture) click on "Technical Data" (it's just under the "General Description" one, which is the default page).

Ahh... that stuff isn't on the USA pages. And I couldn't find out how to get to the UK or European versions of the site. Thanks.

Daniel

[megapixel]

John - do you know where the Rycote shockmounts are sold in the UK?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by megapixel

John - do you know where the Rycote shockmounts are sold in the UK?

Yes - virtually any pro dealer - HHB, Canford Audio, Studiospares, Studio Care, Digital Village, Dolphin Music, Cunnings, etc., etc., etc.......

Anyone who sells pro mics can sell you a Rycote.

Any real difficulty - Rycote themselves - but you should be able to get them from any pro dealer.

However - these only came to market this month and most dealers only know Rycote as basket windshields for broadcast, and may not know of the new series for studio work yet. But as Sennheiser UK distribute Rycote to the dealers, they can all get them easily.

[RickZ]

I was about to start a new topic, but was referred to this old one I put in back in March before I received my pair of 8040's.

There has been much discussion about omni being needed for organ recording, I thought I'd post a short clip from a recording I did yesterday for an up and coming organist.

This particular organ is new this year, but the 32' stops were left out, "Prepared-For", in organ parlance. I think the 8040's did a nice job of capturing the 16' stop(s) used in this clip. I connected the 8040's directly to MR-1000, recording DSD 5.8, AudioGate convert to 88.2/32bit, Sound Forge to create .mp3.

For what it's worth . .

Rick Z

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by matthewd

I will pitch in here as I have the 8020s on trial here in the UK. We compared them with DPA 4006 and Earthworks QTC 40s on a recording in St Johns College Chapel Cambridge and they came up very nicely. There are wonderfully discrete which is useful for live stuff (this was a webcast) and they are very clean and true like most other MKHs. They are also well priced and have lots of useful looking accessories - particularly the tube stands, which we will probably order in due coarse. The one noticeable thing is how lively they are level wise - substantially louder than the DPAs which means nothing other than be careful with the pre amp settings

Strange conclusion about the "levels" Matthew. The DPA are 35mv/Pa while the MKH are only 20mV/Pa.