How did they record jazz?

[RobAnderson]

I think Frank Laico and Fred Plaut were the staff engineers and probably "wrote the manual" themselves. Also, the shift to stereo probably shook up their set ups.

Can you imagine?

Fred Plaut recorded Kind of Blue, Time Out, and Glenn Gould's Italian Concerto performance all in the same space in the same year.

He also recorded Lady in Satin, the original West Side Story cast album, [I suspect] the original Gould Goldberg Variations, and God knows what else in that place.

All recorded and mixed live to tape, everything a masterpiece - just mind boggling.

And how many people even know his name?! Did he leave any of that incredible knowledge and experience behind?

What I would do to get my hands on that manual!

[studer58]

Originally Posted by loujudson

The Lp cover of Harry Belafonte at Carnegie hall is a classic view of a concert with real mics set where they should be. Except for the bass, which I think had a 44 in front of it. Not jazz but the same era!

The Belafonte at Carnegie Hall Lp was always held up by the audiophile press (eg The Absolute Sound) as a landmark of natural and revealing concert recording, including the reproduction of the audience in the venue...so they must've had audience mics going too. The mic cable Belafonte is using looks more like a fire hose....or maybe he'd wrenched it off the solid base and is pictured walking around with the boom arm still attached, 70's rocker style !

[studer58]

Here's some insight into the recording and remastering processes involved in "Kind Of Blue" Imagine sitting in a mastering suite and hearing the playback of the original tapes, decades later.....!
The Fifth Element #34 | Stereophile.com

[boojum]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

You can get good separation when the room is 100'x100' with a 60' ceiling. Listen to it with headphones and turn off the right channel. Listen for the leakage, then switch and turn off the left channel. You'll find that the leakage helps get more of a three dimensional sound. In effect, each instrument mic becomes a "room mic" too.

AJ - that great old recording, and now the pic and some info. How totally different from today's isolation booth approach with folks wearing earphones to hear what is going on. I like the "feel" of these old albums and prefer them over the current isolation approach. The isolation approach has more sizzle but I think it has less steak. YMMV

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by boojum

AJ - that great old recording, and now the pic and some info. How totally different from today's isolation booth approach with folks wearing earphones to hear what is going on. I like the "feel" of these old albums and prefer them over the current isolation approach. The isolation approach has more sizzle but I think it has less steak. YMMV

Not all current recordings are done with isolation and headphones. I always record my own projects, or anything I produce for others, with everyone in the same room. No cans, no booths. Wynton Marsalis records this way too. It is not possible for horn sections to balance themselves properly with cans. You play all of your gigs and rehearsals without isolation and cans, so you can't be expected to play the same way under such weird conditions.

From a listeners perspective, I believe you get a more three dimensional sound with leakage. Even on old mono recordings you get a feel for the space. The drums sound like they're behind the horns because the horn, bass and piano mics act as room mics as well. If the drums are in a booth with a mic on each drum and cymbal, you get a different kind of presence that doesn't sound natural. Even with altaverb or some other good room simulator.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Not all current recordings are done with isolation and headphones. I always record my own projects, or anything I produce for others, with everyone in the same room. No cans, no booths.
[snip]
From a listeners perspective, I believe you get a more three dimensional sound with leakage. Even on old mono recordings you get a feel for the space.

Big thumbs up, +1 or +1000 or whatever.

There are still people in the business of making great, live recordings with the real intimacy of musicians playing in a room together. Some of us do it routinely. Believe it!

JSL

[Remoteness]

The live performance origination - it's how jazz should be captured.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

The live performance origination - it's how jazz should be captured.

You guys do some great work. Steve, I have some of your CD's and they are wonderful in how they capture the sound and the "feel" of the moment. It is not just enough to "hear the stick hit the skin" on the drum. The feel of the whole ensemble as an ensemble is the trick, at least for me.

Which brings me to the question of how many mics are enough? Many of the old gigs were not so spot mic'ed as are today's gigs. Some of the gig's pics I see have just about every guy in the band with his own spot mic. I am not sure that every gig has the "room" or "main" mics so just where do you guys draw the line??? I am seriously trying to get a handle on this if only for the love of the subject. Do you always put up mains and then blend in all the spots? And if you do, musn't you be careful to not stray from a "room" ensemble sound to a "collection of spot mics" sound??

A curious and maybe not too bright mind wants to know. Any enlightenment here would be really appreciated.

TIA

[Uncle Russ]

For what it's worth, I record nothing but jazz in my studio. One room. One mic per instrument. Everybody plays at the same time without headphones. The recording reflects exactly what happened in the room. It works.

Less is more.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Uncle Russ

For what it's worth, I record nothing but jazz in my studio. One room. One mic per instrument. Everybody plays at the same time without headphones. The recording reflects exactly what happened in the room. It works.

Less is more.

Great! Thanks Russ, we need more of you.

[king2070lplaya]

Uncle Russ that's awesome. How do you mic the drums to get a nice balanced sound with 1 microphone?

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya

Uncle Russ that's awesome. How do you mic the drums to get a nice balanced sound with 1 microphone?

That's easy. I bet you can guess.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by boojum

You guys do some great work. Steve, I have some of your CD's and they are wonderful in how they capture the sound and the "feel" of the moment. It is not just enough to "hear the stick hit the skin" on the drum. The feel of the whole ensemble as an ensemble is the trick, at least for me.

Which brings me to the question of how many mics are enough? Many of the old gigs were not so spot mic'ed as are today's gigs. Some of the gig's pics I see have just about every guy in the band with his own spot mic. I am not sure that every gig has the "room" or "main" mics so just where do you guys draw the line??? I am seriously trying to get a handle on this if only for the love of the subject. Do you always put up mains and then blend in all the spots? And if you do, musn't you be careful to not stray from a "room" ensemble sound to a "collection of spot mics" sound??

A curious and maybe not too bright mind wants to know. Any enlightenment here would be really appreciated.

TIA

Thank you very much...

You know something, believe it or not I approach and capture (almost) all genres of music the same exact way.

My mic techniques and mindset has not changed in decades.
That does not mean I (we) don't learn something new each and every day we're on location...

We even learn for our mistakes;-)

I cannot stress it enough; let your ears do the work for you.
The gear helps, but it's about the "ear" and how the instruments blend with each other.

Look at it this way, if you're using a piece of equipment (transducer; preamp; signal processor, etc) for it's sound, you will only get that gear's sound. If you have nothing else to back that up with, you will only have "that" sound.

If you use your ears, you will also have "your" sound.

It doesn't matter what gear I'm using, I'm always going to get "my" sound.
Whether it's Garageband, Protools, Logic or any of the wonderful analog gadgets out there one thing never changes...

My ears are still the key piece of equipment that gets me my sound and exactly what I'm looking for.

Man, it's all about the "feel."
Sometimes I leave in a few "clams" (as know as nuances) because the vibe or feel out weighs the mistake, em, I mean nuance;-)

It's no trick, if it sounds right in the room, it's got to sound right in the CRM.
If it's not right in the CRM, you must change the position of the mic, change the mic or whatever it's going to take because the musicians are busting their... to make it happen, so don't even think about "fixing it in the mix."
Spend the two to five minutes adjusting the rig, so you can save the tens of hours in post.

Hey, one mic is enough if you can move the instruments around it properly.
I've always been a "spot mic" kind of guy, but I'm using a lot less mics these days, especially when I do not have to match a rider spec sheet.

Last night, I was in a room and got a killer drum sound with just two mics.
I used my "drummer's right knee" technique and another mic about 3 feet from the bass drum.
I place the mics once and they sounded exactly like I wanted them to sound.
The studio I was in didn't have great mics, but I placed them in "great" positions.

Some of those gig pictures are misleading because we're usually double mic'ing instruments.
If we're coming in at the back end of a multiple day event, I don't want to jam up the live sound engineer, so we double up.
If we're there from the start, we may go with one set of mics, just because the live sound engineer has a chance to dial them in.
If it doesn't sound right, they can also double up.

Believe it or not, (with jazz) I may place more mics on the acoustic bass than the drums.
I want plenty of options; when the bands blowing, most of the bass mics are toast anyway, so the "ugly" mic positions come in handy during the mix.
I'll take "ugly" over nothing usable any day.

Pretty much, every gig has room mics, but I'm using them to capture the audience response and room tone while the band is playing.

I'm not (always) looking at it as a stereo capture using a main pair and spots.

That being said, many of my mixes have anywhere from 30 to 40% room tone from the three to six room mics.

I may have the front (pointing at the house) three mics EQ'd for audience applause while the rear (or mid) pairs (pointing towards the stage) EQ'd and balance for the band tone; they get balanced and forgotten, the front mics get fader rides when applicable.

You know something? There are no rules, just our ears...

Duke Ellington once said, "if it sounds good, it must be good."

Simple, but tremendous mindset!

[boojum]

^^^^^^ I just have to get out more with those mics and that recorder.

Eddy Mercxx, the great cyclist, was asked how to excel as a cyclist. Eddy's reply, "Ride a bike a lot."

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya

Uncle Russ that's awesome. How do you mic the drums to get a nice balanced sound with 1 microphone?

I saw a picture of a single-mic jazz drum setup where the mic appeared to be about 3 feet in front of the kick and 2 feet "stage left" [i.e. slid over toward the drummer's left], jacked up 6 feet in the air, and aimed down at the snare.

[Uncle Russ]

I tend to set my mic a little closer, maybe 40 inches off the floor, 15 inches in front of the bass drum, and aim it straight down at the center of the snare. For jazz, the snare is more important than the bass drum. A decent cardioid, like a KM184, will work fine on the cymbals and hi-hat even if they're off axis.

I learned my technique from Ben Maas.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Uncle Russ

I tend to set my mic a little closer, maybe 40 inches off the floor, 15 inches in front of the bass drum, and aim it straight down at the center of the snare. For jazz, the snare is more important than the bass drum. A decent cardioid, like a KM184, will work fine on the cymbals and hi-hat even if they're off axis.

I learned my technique from Ben Maas.

I do the same but with a tube mic. A Schoeps 221b or a KM54 would be my first choice.

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by Uncle Russ

I tend to set my mic a little closer, maybe 40 inches off the floor, 15 inches in front of the bass drum, and aim it straight down at the center of the snare.

Do you set the mic directly in front of the bass drum or do you move it off to the side a bit?

[Uncle Russ]

The position depends on the way the drummer sets up. The idea is to capture the kit evenly so I strive for as central a position as possible. But sometimes, to dodge a cymbal, it's necessary to compromise a little.

It's really not very hard: Just set up the mic, ask the drummer to play, and listen to your monitors or headphones. Doodle with the mic position until what you hear in the booth sounds like what you hear in the room. Anybody here can do it perfectly, believe me!

[roonsbane]

Nice Thread!
I have done jazz session stuff with a single 4006 in the right spot on drums. Also, a crap load of live jazz recordings with 4006's as well. Omni's can get you a beefy, balanced sound with a bit more distance! Also the leakage can be so nice! Don't forget the omni's.
Cameron

[SoundWeavers]

Just want to give lots of thanks for all the great sharing on this thread!

[walth]

Originally Posted by Ted Nightshade

OK, I found "Temples of Sound", but having trouble finding the Ashley Khan books at amazon... anybody have titles for those?

Originally Posted by jazzbutcher

That book "Temples of Sound" is a lovely read and has some great photos in it too, from many studios. Sadly, despite a whole chapter on Van Gelder, there is precious little information on his studio, techniques, room layout, etc... Not that there is much information about it anywhere else either! I think he still is pretty mum on how he does his thing.

Temples of Sound has a lot of great chapters on many other studios and the folks that worked there: Chess, Motown, United Western, Stax, J&M, etc.etc....

I enjoyed the "Kind of Blue" book -- I think this is out of print. I got one a while back from a local used bookstore that makes a point of buying lots of out-of-print music books. I bet there are some shops online that might have copies. Good luck hunting!


-dave

Originally Posted by lowswing

I heard that kind of blue was recorded exclusivly with m49's

kind of blue was my favourite album of all time. that and time out by dave brubeck

phil ramone has a great book too he talks about getz/gilberto and how he recorded them.

[Rolo 46]

I go to the Cheltenham Jazz Festival and see my mate recording for BBC Radio 3.
Every gig now has PA, Stage monitors etc, there is no acoustic event, he takes splits from the Monitor Mixer to his Truck (As the Crow Flies).
The jazzers now seem to crave level almost to a Rock degree.
Only one venue has sound reinforcement (The Everyman, a perfect 1890's theatre) the rest are full blown PA rigs
Its almost impossible to hear acoustic jazz.

At the Cheltenham Music Festival I recorded a saxophone quartet playing Steve Reich in a ultra modern Performance theatre (paid for by the House of Saud)
The results were spectacular and the levels achieved amazing, no PA or reinforcement needed at that gig.
Do monitors and PA change a performer and attitudes?
For the better ?
Roger

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

I go to the Cheltenham Jazz Festival and see my mate recording for BBC Radio 3.
Every gig now has PA, Stage monitors etc, there is no acoustic event, he takes splits from the Monitor Mixer to his Truck (As the Crow Flies).
The jazzers now seem to crave level almost to a Rock degree.
Only one venue has sound reinforcement (The Everyman, a perfect 1890's theatre) the rest are full blown PA rigs
Its almost impossible to hear acoustic jazz.

At the Cheltenham Music Festival I recorded a saxophone quartet playing Steve Reich in a ultra modern Performance theatre (paid for by the House of Saud)
The results were spectacular and the levels achieved amazing, no PA or reinforcement needed at that gig.
Do monitors and PA change a performer and attitudes?
For the better ?
Roger

Thanks for that Rolo, good reasons *not* to go to the Cheltenham Jazz Festival.

I have been to the Whitley Bay Jazz Festival a couple of times and thoroughly enjoyed it. It's all acoustic and they allow recording, so this is where I did a lot of the recording tests when I reviewed the Nagra VI for LineUp.


Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[springer]

People cannot be bothered to really listen anymore...
The old folks that go to jazz events bitch about not being able to hear and the young ones are so atuned to iPod crank that they lose interest if it isn't 119dB, so artists and club owners are forced to please the majority. sad

It is really amazing to hear what happens on my (recording) end when I run across the rare acoustic event and a group that really knows how to play their instruments in a full but not overblown range - sheer bliss.

I have even seen some of the younger kids bringing their own guitar amps to jazz gigs now - running their sax thru clip-on mics to the amp so that they can totally ruin the sound that they are supposed to be developing just to increase loudness... very sad

[walth]

Originally Posted by audiothings

Jazz to me is Miles Davis and Coltrane in the 50s, particularly the modal stuff.

The music I record is very similar, in terms of being based around improvisation and spontaneity.

Want to know how the players were setup for stuff like that. I mean,

How did they hear each other? Headphones? Speakers in the studio? It would have been an issue, with the bass being so much softer...? If they had speakers in the studio, how did they deal with the bleed?

Did they use pickups on the upright bass or was it mic only?

Did they set up the mics for the musicians or the musicians for the mics (did the engineers get to be fussy about the positioning of the band)?

Were the players particular about the sound, or did they feel that it did'nt matter?

Did they do much post production? Reverb was the room itself, or some sort of echo chamber or... ? Was it tape compression or some Fairchild type of thing? Did they use any/much Eq?

Thanks,
Self.

Miles used M49s and a presto tape machine i believe. they also had ampex tape machines. i think coltrane used ampex 350/351 pres and a U47 i don't remember for sure.

[Rolo 46]

My favorite jazz recordings are on the Contemporary label
By Roy du Nann
In their stock room, late 50's early 60's
Roy was ex Capitol Records and ex Signals in the US Forces where he was attatched to London in WWII to fathom out RADAR.
During this time his hearing may have been damaged by cans and comms.
Consequently his recordings are of the highest fidelity and upmost clarity.
The Art Pepper sessions are brilliant , few mikes, plenty of space and a splash of verb on the cd mastering.
They were proper acoustic events, like the NY Columbia sessions in the old Armenian Church (Take 5 etc) though they had an echo chamber as well and pioneered tape delay to echo chamber to match the halls initial delays.
Roys simplicity is something I would love to emulate
His access to talent is something I will never have.

Roger

[boojum]

Roy DuNann:

Roy DuNann Update

The Search for Roy DuNann | Stereophile.com


He has some good press, up there with Van Gelder. He used a very simple approach - where have we read that before (GS?) - and apparently got some very sweet sound that way and has re-issues.

[Rolo 46]

Roy is far superior to the optician in my ever so umble opinion
His pianos don't distort or wibble
Pianos were difficult still in the 50s and even early 60's,tape transports could not handle them without W&F.
Valve pre s distorted when close miked.
EMI was still using gravity driven lathes for recording piano in the 50's...

I think Roy recorded Ben Webster live at the Renaissance for Contemporary in 1960.
Arriving in a hurry and lateish, it illustrates the location recordists dilema of a live gig,the tape starts as a mess of buzzes and bangs and converts into solid gold.
Its now a cult HiFi album.
Roger

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by walth

Miles used M49s and a presto tape machine i believe. they also had ampex tape machines. i think coltrane used ampex 350/351 pres and a U47 i don't remember for sure.

Yes, the preamps on those sessions were really special. That's what I always think about when I hear those records, how amazing the preamps are.

JSL