A perspective on the downfall of live music

[dbssound1]

God bless the Rev!

[studio1117]

Originally Posted by monkeyt

I agree its difficult to even distinguish whats going on sometimes when the guy is playing some crappy amp and just delivering whoooomp whooomp whooomp thud, thats hard to deal with.

Crap now I gotta get a new tone and playing style

[idrinkalot]

Originally Posted by Gary Ladd

Edit: I see this thread has been banished to the back 40 to diminish its impact, how typical & predictable! LOL

uh?

[justpushplay]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

Never tell a guitar player to turn down unless you are asked "Do you think I'm too loud?"...It's the Bands music...your job is to deal with it.

I don't even know how to respond to that.........

[analogtodd]

Originally Posted by studio1117

Crap now I gotta get a new tone and playing style

Yup, I'm talking about you....
Change your strings while you are at it too.

[jackies]

I think it's not just the sound guy, it's the drummer too,
I totally hate drummers who bang their drums and dismiss them as being non-musical. I spent my best years playing in a jazzy outfit, and had a perfect drummer, when I was playing real quiet he was quieter, keeping the swing going, and the only place where the drummer is legitimately allowed to do some banging is his solo or tutti parts... C'mon people, stop making noise, listen to vocalist/soloist and make some music!
Peace!

[Remoteness]

I don't mind the drums as much as the cymbal crashes.

Man, I hate it when drummer smash their cymbals harder than their drums.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by justpushplay

I don't even know how to respond to that.........

I guess you're one of those cranky Know-it -all house guys who like to ruin the bands night....If a guitar player is too loud then....

A . He,s not that good and doesn't know it
B. He's not that good, knows it and doesn't care
C. Wants it that way

so....given the above...you aren't gonna change the way they think (and they're not gonna turn down)...

now....if the band says..."how is it for you out there?" (which many do)...then that is different....nothing wrong with being honest and detailed....but there is definitely no reason to be cranky or foreceful about it....try having some fun with it (even if the guitar player sucks), it is rock and roll after all.

Nick

[ahjteam]

I ROOT FOR THE ENHANCED DRUMS! I still have to say that jazz isn't bad music, but the "only amplify us play" in my opinion belongs to jazz and classical music, and them only, and they can have it for all I care. Rock music IS about enhancing, otherwise we wouldn't have use compressors, reverbs or delays in our liveracks.

But I have noticed that I started in the past few years to reduce the amount of microphones a lot... When I started, I usually miced EVERYTHING, usually just because I could. Nowaways I see that if I am mixing and the drummer is playing a basic 3 tom set and if I would have set up 7-11 mics for it, there would be something really really really wrong. Its like the bands that want everything to the monitor, just because you can do it, not because they really need it.

I usually I won't put the overheads for the drums at all, but balance all the other drums to the cymbals, but even if it wouldn't require it, I still put a mic for the snare and kick, possibly toms and the hihat. No matter what the others say about the drum balance, but I think the kick doesn't matter that much (Of course, heavy metal is another thing, where you need the kick to have a whole lot of the 6k attack and usually pretty loud which I personally hate), but the snare does matter a helluva lot, because its really awfully hard for the audience to dance/bob head/swing fist in time if you don't get the count from snare. Thats why I usually mix snare quite loud in the mix.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

I guess you're one of those cranky Know-it -all house guys who like to ruin the bands night....If a guitar player is too loud then....

A . He,s not that good and doesn't know it
B. He's not that good, knows it and doesn't care
C. Wants it that way

so....given the above...you aren't gonna change the way they think (and they're not gonna turn down)...

now....if the band says..."how is it for you out there?" (which many do)...then that is different....nothing wrong with being honest and detailed....but there is definitely no reason to be cranky or foreceful about it....try having some fun with it (even if the guitar player sucks), it is rock and roll after all.

Nick

dude...i find myself disagreeing with you everywhere. by the way, you're not that much older than me, and i'd guess not been doing this as long as me either, so let's not get into this "young guys gotta respect me stuff".
it is ABSOLUTELY my job to ask a guitar player to turn down. i suppose they aren't allowed to ask me to put reverb on their vocals either? When they step on that stage, and I'm behind the mixer; we are all working towards the same goal. your attitude of the "don't ask, don't tell" mentality of sound guys is exactly what i see in the twilight years of so many guys who've lost their ability to care.

A-if he's not that good, then he probably wants to get better
B-if he's not that good and doesn't care, tough crap. i do and it's my reputation at stake when a show sounds likedfegad
C-here's where it gets tricky. if you're mixing jucifer, yeah the guitar is going to be too loud, and you're gonna have to deal with it. but dude not saying anything to a band about glaring problems that are easily fixed makes it look like you just don't care.

[justpushplay]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

I guess you're one of those cranky Know-it -all house guys who like to ruin the bands night....

Nick

I hardly ever mix FOH anymore, maybe twice in the last two years, for friends, for fun, BUT.....if I am, I'm there to be sure the band's performance translates well to the audience. Professional musicians are usually keenly aware of their onstage level and blend, and know how to listen to the situation around them. Anything less and I'm outta there. Life is too short to sit at FOH for two hours with your head buried in your hands.

Michael

I forgot, but back in the early 90's I once had a spare Soundcraft Europa set up downstage center, waiting on the PITA singer who kept trying to mix the show from the stage the previous night. He came in for the sound check, and the crew informed him that I had left, and it was up to him now. He learned a valuable lesson that day...:-)

[SixAndChange]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

singers fists never leave the ball of the 58 anyway; so where's the bleed gonna come from anyway?

I've actually had problems with certain microphones having their polar response changed do to someone/something blocking the back or bottom of a microphone, the parts that rely on sound entering them to cause a negative canceling pressure on the capsule giving it the cardioid characteristic we neeeeeeed in live sound.

The whole cupping of the microphone deal is all fine and dandy, but its almost as annoying as the singer that sings into and holds a microphone near his stomach.


As for asking a guitar player to turn down, it is only a matter of having the lead singer step down into the audience area while his guitarist blasts his Fender amp at a sparkling 102db into the singers ears. Once that happens you can be damn sure you wont have to say anything, and the lead singer will do all the work for you.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by SixAndChange

I've actually had problems with certain microphones having their polar response changed do to someone/something blocking the back or bottom of a microphone, the parts that rely on sound entering them to cause a negative canceling pressure on the capsule giving it the cardioid characteristic we neeeeeeed in live sound.

The whole cupping of the microphone deal is all fine and dandy, but its almost as annoying as the singer that sings into and holds a microphone near his stomach.


As for asking a guitar player to turn down, it is only a matter of having the lead singer step down into the audience area while his guitarist blasts his Fender amp at a sparkling 102db into the singers ears. Once that happens you can be damn sure you wont have to say anything, and the lead singer will do all the work for you.

fantastic idea

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

dude...i find myself disagreeing with you everywhere. by the way, you're not that much older than me, and i'd guess not been doing this as long as me either, so let's not get into this "young guys gotta respect me stuff".
it is ABSOLUTELY my job to ask a guitar player to turn down. i suppose they aren't allowed to ask me to put reverb on their vocals either? When they step on that stage, and I'm behind the mixer; we are all working towards the same goal. your attitude of the "don't ask, don't tell" mentality of sound guys is exactly what i see in the twilight years of so many guys who've lost their ability to care.

A-if he's not that good, then he probably wants to get better
B-if he's not that good and doesn't care, tough crap. i do and it's my reputation at stake when a show sounds likedfegad
C-here's where it gets tricky. if you're mixing jucifer, yeah the guitar is going to be too loud, and you're gonna have to deal with it. but dude not saying anything to a band about glaring problems that are easily fixed makes it look like you just don't care.

No it's not your job to ask the guitar player to turn it down....that's just you thinking the show is about you...it isn't...and I don't care how old you/I am or who has more experience....and...you don't know what's best for a band...like I said.... if they ask (which a lot will do) then give them some good advice.. if they don't ask...they don't care about your opinion..it still might end up being a good show...I'm trying to say save your sanity... and stop being a crusty asswipe that nobody wants to work with.

Nick

[nickynicknick]

...and yes they absolutely are allowed to ask you not to use reverb...maybe they hate reverb...you'd be surprised how well musician's can tell how good it sounds from the stage...and why are you using reverb on vocals in loud crazy situations anyway??...

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

...and yes they absolutely are allowed to ask you not to use reverb...maybe they hate reverb...you'd be surprised how well musician's can tell how good it sounds from the stage...and why are you using reverb on vocals in loud crazy situations anyway??...

you've completely misunderstood my point... my point was to illustrate that absolutely they have that right. if you're constantly mixing in loud crazy situations, perhaps you should rethink our entire conversation. it's no wonder you don't have an ability to listen. as far as people being unwilling to work with me, i've done several national tours for the same band, and have been asked by EVERY band that they toured with to go out with them next. don't assume that i'm some **** that TELLS guitarists to turn down...i ask. feel free to get the last word; but i'm done with this nonsense. if your mission was to get a rise out of me, then bravo.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

you've completely misunderstood my point... my point was to illustrate that absolutely they have that right. if you're constantly mixing in loud crazy situations, perhaps you should rethink our entire conversation. it's no wonder you don't have an ability to listen. as far as people being unwilling to work with me, i've done several national tours for the same band, and have been asked by EVERY band that they toured with to go out with them next. don't assume that i'm some **** that TELLS guitarists to turn down...i ask. feel free to get the last word; but i'm done with this nonsense. if your mission was to get a rise out of me, then bravo.

The last word is yours.

Nick

[bjornson]

As a guy who grew up doing live sound , from 15 seats to 5000, and then branched out to include the studio side, I'll say this:
Every studio engineer would benefit from some experience in live audio. The ability to make things sound good in hostile environments is invaluable. It's not as easy as it looks. Different rooms with different gear every day. The ability to set up a 48 channel stage and line check it in 20 minutes.... The ability to dial in a band full of strangers before the first chorus. Dealing with long hours and pissy musicians/patrons/promoters.
The laughs I've gotten watching a bands "studio guy" step up to the plate behind a PM5d/Meyer line array have been priceless. Instant humility training.
When I hire a guy to work in the studio, live sound experience is a requirement. Time spent on someones SSL4000G is not.

[justpushplay]

Originally Posted by bjornson

Every studio engineer would benefit from some experience in live audio.

I agree 100%. It's also true that live guys could benefit from sitting between a pair of nearfields and mixing a few songs. This topic probably deserves it's own thread, but the reason I love location recording so much is that it combines the best of the two disciplines.

Michael

Oh yeah, and if the guitar player won't turn down, you can let the band listen back to all the tracks that the guitar is bleeding all over. Fixes THAT every time...:-)

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by justpushplay

Oh yeah, and if the guitar player won't turn down, you can let the band listen back to all the tracks that the guitar is bleeding all over. Fixes THAT every time...:-)

That's why I've started investing in recording gear. So I could hear what I sound like and improve.

Unfortunately the majority of bands have little ideal of what they sound like to others. And many on the accoustic side of things may have never been recorded before. Of course the playback doesn't always work, if your mix or reproduction abilities are devoid of the characteristics that you're wanting to impart to the group. Or if the venue / room is so different from the norm that the group is accustomed to. Yes good musicians adjust to what they hear. But you don't always hear as a musician. Kind of hard to tune actually when you're too far from a sound source to hear it over screaming fans or bad accoustics.

From my reality, a trombone choir is capable of perfect intonation. Which is easier to do when in close proximity and facing each other. Take the same group and put their backs to each other and space them ten or more feet apart from each other and watch that same group fall on their face per say. Nothing really to do with the musicianship of the group, or the recording abilities of the sound guy. Just poor accoustics at their worse. Especially if you factor in crowd noise, and whatever other noise sources a given venue has. A/C, refridgerators, ice machines, blenders, door bells, church bells, intercoms, helicopters, fire trucks, ambulances, ....... yadda yadda yadda...

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by bjornson

As a guy who grew up doing live sound , from 15 seats to 5000, and then branched out to include the studio side, I'll say this:
Every studio engineer would benefit from some experience in live audio. The ability to make things sound good in hostile environments is invaluable. It's not as easy as it looks. Different rooms with different gear every day. The ability to set up a 48 channel stage and line check it in 20 minutes.... The ability to dial in a band full of strangers before the first chorus. Dealing with long hours and pissy musicians/patrons/promoters.
The laughs I've gotten watching a bands "studio guy" step up to the plate behind a PM5d/Meyer line array have been priceless. Instant humility training.
When I hire a guy to work in the studio, live sound experience is a requirement. Time spent on someones SSL4000G is not.

everything I wanted to say but didn't.thumbsup

Nick

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

everything I wanted to say but didn't.thumbsup

Nick

And alas...we agree